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Seeking stock repair advice

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acorpcop
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Seeking stock repair advice

#1 Post by acorpcop » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:35 pm

Several years ago I purchased a M91/38 Carcano Cavalry carbine from the "barrel of guns" (all the really ugly ones) they used to have at Hyatt's in Charlotte NC.
The stock was buggered but looked fixable but I put it on the back burner. The action was caked with mud on the inside and the barrel was plugged with more mud. Metal finish was decent, all the numbers matched, and once I cleaned the bore it was not pristine but quite shootable. No import mark. Fast forward to now and I'm trying to complete a bunch of projects I've been putting off. I'm looking at this thing and scratching my head at how to pull this off. The cartouches are quite decent as is the wood over all, except for all the stab marks and the wood saw hack as shown in the photos. There's one long scratch that runs right through the stock markings. Based on the mud and stab marks it looks like someone gave the "junk ey-talian gun" to their kid to play with. Be a shame to sand that stock to extinction. Photos below. Looking for some input on how to make this thing look right on the gunrack.
20190106_140746.jpg

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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#2 Post by acorpcop » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:37 pm

Other side: :-o
20190106_140656.jpg

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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#3 Post by Ghoulardi » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:00 pm

welcome to the board :)


honestly, I wouldn't even bother with trying to "repair" or pretty it up. it is what it is, it just shows "character". it's one thing to repair a cracked stock, but one that has gouges and scratches, I would just leave it as is, and just shoot and enjoy it,


I don't know of a gun collector that doesn't have at least one or 2 old military surplus rifles where the stock has seen better days, and they just leave it as is instead of trying to "pretty it up"

I have a few like that myself, gouges, dings and scratches: a M1917, M1 Garand and a Russian captured Mauser. the nice thing about that, if I do put a couple more dings in it, it's no big deal :)

just put some linseed oil on it and call it a day :)
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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#4 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:06 am

I would agree with Ghoulardi. That said, it's a cheep Carcano, find a similar rifle with a decent stock, maybe bad metal, rusty, but a nice stock, buy it for $200, and switch out the stocks. Best way to fix it, is to get a nice replacement stock stock. There are always $100-200 M91/38 Carcano Cavalry carbines with missing bayonets, cut and ground bayonet mounts, miss matched bolts or rusty dogs with some nice stocks at gun shows.
It will never be the same. Cover up the gouges and scratches with stain, pigment, or oil, it looks messed with, it becomes a parts gun. Fill in the dents and it looks horrible, it becomes a parts gun. Drastic stock refinish, steam, fillers, heavy oil, thick un-milsurp like finish, it becomes a noticeable cheep refinish and guess what you are back to it being a parts gun. Best kept as is.

You have to be a museum restoration expert to get it even close to fair. I would leave it as is, or buy a replacement stock- most likely another rifle.
It's a great parts rifle. Now if you are into practice & want adventure, try a repair. If it turns out poorly, you are just back to getting a replacement stock. The bolt, bayonet, and front bands always sell fast as parts.
Is that even an original finish? Looks like its an odd finish for a Carcano.

I like this guy:
Gouges
Quote:
Originally Posted by azguy View Post
Got a buddies OLD walnut stock that rode in his truck rifle for years. The stock has some deep gouges in it, probably 1/16 to 1/8 inch deep and over an inch long with some. I'l like to fill these but was curious as to what with. I am shortening the stock for his kid, hence the reason for the project. I can get plenty of matching walnut dust from the piece of butt taken off. What would be the best "glue" or epoxy to mix the walnut dust with and use as a filler? And these are too much to try and "steam" out. They are gouges cause by the seat behind which the rifle rode for so long. I could just mill out the gouges and glue in inlayed pieces but thought I would see what y'all had to say. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Depends on how "hidden" you want to make em and how much time you want to take and if you got the talent. No insult to you but making a "hard to see if at all" is real tough with a capital R. If the wood is not really great it simply is not worth the effort.

None of the current glues, wood patches, fillers, epoxy or fiberglass fillers etc. will create a patch that can be dyed or stained to match the original wood regardless of whether or not you add sawdust to them or not. Wood fillers have a really nasty habit of looking awful if you try and add color to them for blending purposes.

If you have ever finished wood you will be familair with glues not being able to be colored. Even a really small amount of glue squeeze out on a joint will refuse to be colored regardles of what method you use short of painting it.

Hide glue, yes the animule stuff, can take a stain or dye when mixed with sawdust but even that is iffy. Needs to be applied hot, but not hot enough to burn you.

In short you are basically screwed if you want an invisible or semi invisible patch other than cutting one and faux finishing.

That said . . . . you can patch with almost any quality glue and you can add sawdust to it if you want, adding it will only give it non bonding strength though. It will simply be a filler and unless you put too much sawdust in the bond strength of a quality glue will not be affected. Sawdust and glue, IMO, is the best filler assuming you are not trying to make a patch invisible and I recommend it. Then "paint" it over with a gelcoat. I would not recommend any kind of wood filler and if you do have hide glue I would recommend that if you have some other uses for it. It is a superior glue for woodworking all things considered. If not then some decent glue like titebond etc. Premixed wood fillers have three nasty habits. The first is the solvent in them will contaminate the wood around the patch so that that area is highly defined and generally a different color than the patch. The second is they tend to bleed out the color in UV light like sunlight, and third they have a really irritating habit of popping out. Like bondo on a car that is not anchored well. I dislike them immensly so consider my last comment(s) in that light.

DON'T USE Gorilla Glue. It is primarily designed as a filler glue and expands to fill in gaps. Expands like crazy and is pourous as h&ll.

Mix it up, pour some of into a small dixie cup or even on a board, mix in enough sawdust to make it a paste then smear it over the gouge. You can add a dye to it if you want or a stain but I would be careful with adding a stain as the solvents in a stain can sometimes negate a lot of the bonding properties of the glue. IMO it is not gonna make a difference whether you add a dye or not cause the odds of matching the rest of the stock are way out there but it won't hurt if you have some stuff laying around that is close in color.

You want to have enough to be a little proud of the area around the rest of the wood so you can sand it flat. Let set up for at least 72 HOURS before sanding Glues dry from the outside in and it takes a long time for that if you put em on thck. If the gouge is really deep, like 1/8" I would, maybe just me but anyway, I would do 2 or three thin coats of the your "filler" like 30 minutes apart to let the bottom coat set up some. Glue is not like a body filler. Put in a thin coat, wait a while, stick a needle in it and see if it is "kinda more gooey" then the glue directly from container, if so slap another thin coat on repeat the test and keep doing until the glue is proud of the stock.

In a "paste" form modern glues and any thickness greater than really thin will set up a lot slower than in their designed liquid state. They are designed for bonding with a small amount not as a filler between joints. If you don't leave it proud and just touch up with sanding the patch will show the edge line even with a Gelcoat. Need to feather it in. After sanding, and I would wet sand it with wet automotive paper.

Get whatever Gel Coat you want and blend it in over the patch and into the surrounding area feathering it out so it does not have pronounced color edges. If you have stripped the stock completely you can Gel Coat the whole thing and get a pretty decent blended color finish. Wear rubber gloves unless you want to have your hands the color of the Gel Coat for a few days. That stuff migrates up into your hands like magic.

If you take your time you can almost make the patch outline disapper. Assuming you have more artisic talent than I do. In the "noremf" dynasty the queen does all the Faux finishing work. I really suck at it.

When you get it blended the way you want then add the topcoat of your preference.

If you don't strip or sand the entire stock the patch will be visible but a whole lot less than if you try and stain or dye the patch.

My advise would be to strip the whole thing, patch em up then Gel Coat the whole thing. Stains or dyes simply don't work on a glue patch.

There have been some posts by guys who have used Gel Coats on birch/beech or wood that had a lot of sapwood in it that look gorgeous and I am sure they will chime in with their preferred method.

I know guys that patch with stained or dyed fillers without trying to blend them in and they always look like patches. Like I said, your choice on how much you want to put into the repair.

noremf(George)
Last edited by noremf; 08-05-2011 at 08:32 PM.
source https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/s ... p?t=405600

I have a book of Candyman posts, pre crash, and if this is in it & remains intact I will post the pages of my print out for you. See this post with lost photos due to the crash. Candyman is ill and I do not know how he is doing. This was good info. I am not sure I made a print out of this one. I will get back to you on that.
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... =61&t=1227
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#5 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:07 pm

Sorry I never made a print out of that pre crash Candyman post. Pictures are lost unless some one has an old print out they could post.

Here is a Wayback link to the original with a few pics. intact. The ones posted by photo bucket are history.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150419085 ... 37&t=51259


More ideas here:
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/s ... p?t=444755
A range in Carcano wood. DSource Libertytreecollectors:
Screen Shot 2019-01-07 at 2.49.48 PM.png

AVOID THIS LOOK :snooty: :doh:
ee7f055592_md.jpeg
source on line grab


Source of correct stock replacements LIBERTYTREECOLLECTORS $165--- You basically get the same thing, but pay $165
Condition is sound with dings and compressions from use and long storage, small cracks or imperfections possible
https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/p ... ategory=28
Screen Shot 2019-01-07 at 2.59.59 PM.png


See this picture and its darkest stock. Second one.
Screen Shot 2019-01-07 at 2.59.59 PM.png
SUMMARY:

1 :shhh: :shhh: :shifty: :shifty: :arrow: Solution fill holes with Brownell's Acraglas wood dust putty
of a light hardwood sanding dust and restain/color the stock
a dirty brown like shown in some of the above to hide repairs


2 Leave it as is. :clap: :clap: :dance: :dance: You can oil it with filthy, black, lawn mower oil from the oldest Lawn mower engine you can find.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#6 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:33 pm

This is what I would call an average good condition Carbine stock looks like:
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... =14&t=2399

photo M76's rifle from above source
M38 kopito.jpg
M38 kopito.jpg (57.45 KiB) Viewed 1464 times



This is my Carcano pig sticker, see 2 lower photos: both a lighter color to the stock.
IMG_8397_zps460a23bc.JPG
IMG_8398_zpsd8af80e4.JPG

Here are Roy's : http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... =14&t=2310

He's got many more pictures in the above source>
318.JPG
318.JPG (87.3 KiB) Viewed 1454 times
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#7 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:05 pm

If you use the Brownell's Acraglas wood dust putty, or if cheep, then you might get by with Abatrons WoodEpox putty, but it is harder to restain. This is used on historical houses to fill in rotten missing wood. It holds firm and sands easy, but it is more for painting, not staining. It is for historical repairs on houses with carved details that might be missing. It is one great product in historical restoration. Tough. On rifles Acraglass is a better choice. Abatron does have dry pigments to color the putty prior to a stain. Not necessary if painting over it on a house. https://www.abatron.com/product-categor ... storation/


REMEMBER to cover the blended/feathered in putty, you will have to go darker on the stock color over the entire stock. The putty must cover over the edges of the gouges-- like plaster repairs to cracks in a wall. Some thin putty must be surrounding the outer edges of the gouge. Kind of blending it into the stock. It's artistic restoration and will take days of tender loving care to end up with repairs that look so good a normal guy will say "that's a nice original beat stock that I can refinish". Then you know you did a great restoration! It does not look new or like a hunting stock. You want to maintain value. Your work must be so good it's unseen. To a real collector it's a deception if the work is done expertly.
One thought--- you do not sand, rather think a green scrubby rub. Do not round down edges. Start with a new green scrubby to smooth the putty areas then finish with a well used, almost soft scrubby as a finish scrub to remove the paint spots and some of the original finish-- not down to bare wood. The blend between the putty and old finish must be so good it is not seen when covered with a stain. If you can see the edge, you need to redo some work to feather the repair better. It has to be correct. Also, the texture of the two different surfaces (the putty and the old finish) must match. An artistic blend of old and new stain with a cloth rubbed application. Also a textural similarity to both areas-- you need a color and surface texture match to the restoration. See my post about dyes. Do not even think about sand paper. You want a hand rubbed finish and not a pimp shine like a hunting stock. Your sand paper is cotton rags with different textures from fine weave to coarse weave. White is best. Just like restoration to plaster walls and fine furniture, gunstock work takes time to get it right.


http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... f=61&t=375
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... =61&t=2931
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#8 Post by acorpcop » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:04 pm

I'm thinking the stock color is a combination of Birchwood Casey, filth, and ground in dirt and neglect in a garage etc.. There's specks of beige latex paint spatter on the other side of the stock. I'm convinced that this thing was literally given to a kid to play with, back in the day.

I'm not trying to make it look brand new. The gun has been used (and used hard) even before Timmy decided to try out a wood saw & pocket knife on it. I just want it to look decent on the gun rack and have appropriate fixes. I was think about doing a splice on the hacked out/sawed area. Just trying to get some ideas for the stab marks. Trying to use this as a learning experience to try my hand at doing it right and acraglas ain't that expensive.

As for $200 Carcanos, not around here. Prices on milsurp anything are usurious.

It goes with my Victory Model .38 S&W Smith that was, nickel plated, bobbed and bored out to .38SPL although to be fair it should really be a short rifle instead of the cavalry carbine and the Smith should be blued...

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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#9 Post by 72 usmc » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:54 pm

Some pointers. Here is an old post from one of Candymans students (Gunfreak 2) that got fantastic at stock repair. The 3 experts: Candyman, Gunfreak and Cabinetman all seem to have left and no longer comment on wood working.
see Gunfreaks comments: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... ifle-stock

Trans tint , acetone and examples with Acraglass
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=64653

CMP ENTRY LEVEL CARE AND PRESERVATION TIPS AND CONSIDERATIONS
http://thecmp.org/training-tech/armorer ... g-article/

Acraglass instructions
https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/lear ... %20Gel.pdf

Brownells cost
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tool ... d1033.aspx

Abatron cost


Abatron use on a house example
https://www.oldtownhome.com/2011/10/11/ ... -Them-All/

If its your first time I would use both products Abatron and Acraglass on a piece of hardwood that you put some dents in, fill them to see how each works. Then do a stain with alcohol based dye and oil stains and you may want to use some artists oil paint to see how each product takes the stain. Acraglass is more of a liquid epoxy base and Abatron is more of a putty epoxy- more firm. I have found Abatron to take thin stains better than just plain Acraglass. You need wood dust. I would add a color agent into the product so you do not need so much of a covering agent. Both can be smoothed down over the holes edges. See the above posts for hints. With abatron you can use a wet cloth to blend in the edges. Practice on a spare piece of wood first and see what product you like.


This portion of the scratch stays,only fill what is necessary- scratch and small stab holes. Other dings can remain for character.
Screen Shot 2019-01-08 at 8.04.48 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-01-08 at 8.04.48 PM.png (172.75 KiB) Viewed 1376 times
Your scratch goes through the cartouche so I would leave it near the cartouche . Fill up to the left edge the remake a light scratch from the left edge of the cartouche just a wee bit into the repair so it appears like a scratch only through the cartouche. The central portion and right side remains as is. Most ACE hardware stores with a paint department have the small cans of Abatron on the shelf. You will have to order Acraglass from Brownells. With Acraglass I would add a lighter wood dust to make a firm putty and not use the product as a thick liquid glue. If you do it sinks down so 2 applications may be needed. You want to use it as a putty not a glue.
Is that a walnut stock wood? If you make it dark like an M1 then try Chestnut Ridge Military Stock Stain, it's a dark walnut color like see on US military stocks. Its rubbed on to control how much is applied. Never painted on with a brush.

May be photo document your work with comments and post steps as well as the before and after results.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#10 Post by 72 usmc » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:33 pm

Candyman tips from old post:
mineralman55 wrote:
I used Accraglas to fill in some deep gouges on a walnut M1 stock. I have previously sanded the stock, saved the dust and mixed in a little of the dust with the Accraglas/hardener to emulate the original color of the stock. Three hours later the gouge-fill was still gummy. Does mixing sanding dust with the Accraglas extend hardening time?

As long as the sanding dust is dry, it will not effect the curing time of the Acraglas.
One of two things happened. You eather added too much hardner or not enugh.
Also; you need to use a lighter color sanding dust then the stock because, the Acraglas resin will wet the dust and make it look darker. To test the color of your sanding dust, just wet a little of it with some denatured alcohol to see how dark it will be.
The problem with using sanding dust when the stock is light in color is that the sanding dust gets wet in the resin and will appear darker then the stock. If you are going to use sanding dust it needs to be lighter in color then the stock you are working on.
You only have two courses of action.
#1 Stain the stock darker to help blend the repairs.
#2 Remove the dark resin and start over.

If your not sure how dark your sanding dust will be after adding it to your resin, wet it with some denatured alcohol first and that will be very close to what it will look like in the resin.

_________________
Interesting paper, but most likely will bore you to death if not a Historical Artchaeologist.
A MA Paper from my old historic preservation files https://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewco ... =hp_theses
Considering the Use of Epoxies in the Repair of Historic Structural Timber
Ryan Cleary 2014
University of Pennsylvania
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#11 Post by Ghoulardi » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:17 am

72, you are cracking me up with your posts. :D
COOL IT WITH THE BOOM-BOOMS!! OVA-DAY!!

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Re: Seeking stock repair advice

#12 Post by 72 usmc » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:22 pm

Here is an intact reference library of stock projects, both good and bad. Some are Candyman's old posts.
Rim fire forum. These have tons of information especially the last link. Well worth a read and some you will want to print out
. A gold mine of info.
This a collection of project threads and some tributes involving stock making, repairing, refinishing, modifying, and bedding. I was inspired to start this so we could have a way to keep track of all the great threads that have graced our forum for a short time, many of which have already been moved back to where they came from. I've also added some threads from other areas of RFC and will continue to do so as more are found. Hopefully these will inspire and encourage folks in their future projects.
Stocks- making, repairs, finishing & refinishing, modifications, bedding
https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/s ... p?t=520944



Some fantastic information here a real treasure of tricks of the trade
Welcome to the School of Woodworking Knowledge. Things to avoid, stock prep, stains & dyes, finishing, repairs, and more.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/s ... p?t=520722
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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