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SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#61 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:48 pm

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I stand corrected. I went back and reread. This is what he posted:
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#62 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:35 pm

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-snipers-us ... oom-scopes

This is why I always thought that fixed power scopes were better. You practice with one power and can more quickly make that better shot, I think. And, there can be eight or more pieces of glass in a variable power scope to look through, and maybe as little as four in a fixed scope. I am assuming that that is why I always thought that those cheap ‘Monoscopes’ were so clear. But when shooting at paper, it can be more pleasant and ‘Fun’, for lack of a better word to use that variable scope. Yes, I have both of course. And, we know that now-a-days these 1000 dollar and up Zeiss scopes look outstanding. One time in Vietnam a VC sniper missed my head maybe by a couple of inches – at least it sounded ‘like’ two inches. I don’t have any other experience with that.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#63 Post by OLDGUNNER » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:29 pm

I have had ‘Zero’ military marksmanship training, but I have my ideas of marksmanship, based on my country kid shooting experience. I would like to talk to a real military sniper that has gone through the military modern sniper training. I did have some what may be called ‘military shooting training’ in the fall of 1945 by an ex marine shooting trainer. It was just a local city sponsored shooting course for young kids using Winchester Model 52’s and Remington Model 513’s. I was 11 at the time. And that guy was what I would call a really, really good marksmanship trainer. We would shoot prone, kneeling and standing at a 50 foot indoor police shooting range. The targets were ten to a sheet about 1 and 1/2 inches in diameter with a black bull 10 ring of .22 inches in diameter. We would shoot one night a week for about six weeks with about 6 in each of his classes and I think he had three classes. At the end we had a shoot-off with a possible score of 300, 10 shoots at each of prone, kneeling and standing targets. One kid got a perfect 300 and I came in second with a 299. I really have no idea how this compares with modern shooting but I do believe that that .22 inch 10 ring was hard to do standing, and I sure do not believe that I could do it now-a-days.

But to my thoughts on modern military sniper training. I see all of the TV articles of the ‘spotter’ calling the ‘clicks’ adjustments to the shooter. Now to me with ‘zero’, ‘none’...experience in this, this just doesn’t sound right. Why bother with this secondary step in translating the spotter’s estimations into ‘clicks’ for the scope adjustment for the shooter. To me it would be just adding more room for error. Why can’t the spotter just say range is such-and-such and windage is 10 inches to the left? This is to me is immediately more usable information. This is why I would like to talk to a real sniper and get his thoughts on this. I wonder how much of this is ‘Hollywood’ and how much is real. I really don’t know.

My basic thoughts on this would be more like....start one’s training with one rifle, one weight of bullet, one type of bullet, one scope set at one power, be it 10 to 15 power or whatever. And, AND...after they can hit a nickel at whatever distance, up hill, down hill, in the rain or whatever, and then let every sniper keep that rifle with him from then on. Even if this is not possible they should be able to adapt to a new rifle within reason. The spotter can use his range-finder to give the range to the shooter and the windage correction and that’s it. The shooter can have his little range correction card as the video states, on their scope flip-up cover. There is nothing wrong with a good range reticle for the less trained.

Again, this is just my simplistic view of these things, and maybe, just maybe could it be that this is just too simple for the powers-to-be and think that it has to be more involved to sound professional. As I say I would like to know what a real sniper would think of this.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#64 Post by OLDGUNNER » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:43 am

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This is strictly for what it’s worth...for those that may like to make some ‘good’ black powder.

As far as I am concerned most do not. They are making it without forethought in what they are trying to do. They usually just follow someone’s instruction of someone that is acting also without forethought in what they are instructing. And of course one may think the same about what I may be saying and just not bother to read anymore.

I have a picture on another computer that I will try to find where I took a picture just after a shot with my black powder where just an almost indiscernible wisp of smoke can be seen. I have read and have no reason not to believe, that an outfit in Belgium has made black Powder that burns with a pressure of 75,000 psi, and one company in the UK has made black powder that burns with a pressure of 70,000 psi, but this is just in their lab and does not make a powder this strong for sale due to safety standards, where the norm for the regular commercial black powder on the market is in the area of 25,000 to 30,000 psi, so I’ve just read - don't really know about that. What I haven’t been able to do is determine just what are the methods and parameters for measuring the psi. I understand and I also believe that the normal commercial Black Powder on the market is purposely ‘derated’ and controlled from batch to batch for repeatability and safety concerns. It would be paramount for this to be the norm.

But with my situation I have no such restrictions. And...one time a couple of years ago I loaded three .45 Long Colt cases with my powder plum full and compressed with the same cast bullets as I used to load 3 other cases with a regular smokeless powder loading from a reloading manual, I forget how much of what. As for pressure of the powder, I believe this is important. Fact is the black powder will not burn in a vacuum...it requires some pressure to burn. It will usually burn at normal atmospheric pressure of the 14 plus psi. But somewhere between this and a vacuum it will stop burning, depending on the quality of the powder. This is why the same powder will burn with a lot more smoke in a muzzle loading rifle than in a brass case. And I shot all at my dirt spot on my hill side 210 yards away. As a precaution I put on a pair of safety glasses and used a regular full-face plastic face shield. And using a 5 and half inch barreled revolver shot them into what I would call the same 3 foot diameter circle. And I thought that the frequency of the report of the black powder was higher than the regular smokeless – with the nicest sounding crack. But I made my powder like no other way that I have seen on any Video or read in any book. And I used regular cheap garden supply 98 % Potassium Nitrate and cheap garden supply Sulfur.

Firstly and mainly I don’t use burned wood as most do for their charcoal. For the life of me I can not figure out why some will think that burned wood is the same as charcoal. For Black Powder, the charcoal should not have any wood ashes in it and to make sure that this doesn’t happen, do not allow any of the wood to burn. For my charcoal maker I started with an old electric heating coil controlled with a high powered AC control like the ones for regular light dimmers, only with a big high power Diac. This is not necessary these days because there are a lots of ways to control the power to the heating coil, but control is necessary. I have not done any fine tuning after my last batch. I would say to slowly increase the temperature of the charring chamber until the smoke just starts to come out of the vent port and do not increase the temperature, just let it char at this temperature until the smoke stops. In case the last of the wood doesn’t char, one may just increase the temperature a tad bit for a few minutes and if there is no more smoke, then turn everything off. I will just show a picture of the temperature control that I made. I just think that tight control of temperature is most important. That little digital read-out is just an AC amp meter to see what I am doing. The two black knobs are for course and fine current control.

Things that I considered: Making good charcoal is one of the two most important parts of making good black powder.

1. Use an air-tight metal container for my charring wood, except for one small vent hole.
2. I used typically one half to three quarters of an inch at the most diameter of ‘SEEP WILLOW’. This is not a true ‘willow’, but is so widely available in the US and is so easy to get. One may wish to see pictures of it on the web. I cut it into 2 inch long pieces, without the knots and bark to fit my metal 3 inch high pan with a tight fitting lid, after splitting into four pieces so to make the charring as uniform as I could with all pieces standing vertically and firmly packed. Sloppy work making the charcoal will make for sloppy black powder.

The next most important thing is to ‘Ball-Mill’ everything. I made some different ‘ball molds’ to make my lead balls out of wheel weights.

1. After three hours of ball milling the charcoal, if there are any little pieces of charcoal that did not get balled into fine powder, take them out and discard.
2. Measure out a given amount by weight and add the proper amount of powdered Potassium Nitrate.
3. Ball mill for another 3 hours.
4. Add the proper amount of sulfur. I used a fine sulfur power for garden use.
5. Ball mill for another 3 hours.

Now here is where I made my last two batches differently...but I did not notice any difference between the two. In my second from the last I added a little water just to a fine dampness and ball-milled for another hour maybe. And rolled it out on wax paper with a rolling pin as thin as I could get it and let it dry for a couple of days. I had five stripes of wax paper five feet long. And worried it around in a wire strainer until it all was through.

Okay, in my last batch, I didn’t bother with this....I just used it as it came out of my last ball-milling – super fine....no ‘F’ number – didn’t care.

I have one of those 20 ton presses but have not tried pressing it into hard pucks first because it has worked so good without.

I paid 15 dollars for 5 pounds of Potassium Nitrate and maybe 2 for a pound of sulfur, so my black powder came out to just over 3 dollars a pound, and it burns so clean.

Rather than say all the time, “This is the way I did it,” this is what I meant. I am in no way saying or suggesting that anyone follow what I did. One place one may get into trouble is with a muzzle loading rifle and use too much of the fine powder, so I would just suggest don’t use it in one, I don’t. I just haven’t gotten around to making any more of a course powder.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#65 Post by OLDGUNNER » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:41 am

In passing, I just came across this. I don’t know how it was decided as 9th. But our property borders the National Forest just 100 yards behind our house. It isn’t everyone that has a 500,000 acre back yard. https://www.outsideonline.com/2006426/a ... towns-2015
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#66 Post by OLDGUNNER » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:38 pm

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I like this------Someone told him that he needed a drop tube...he will make a long ‘drop tube’...the longer one should make things more better than a shorter drop tube. Now he has a sense of humor.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#67 Post by OLDGUNNER » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:43 am

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For years I had been wondering just where this was. There was no indication in the road map. One day I looked in the rear view mirror and there it was – just down the road a piece. I had been ‘coming’ from that direction all of the time. We would be leaving Phoenix in the morning in coming this way after dark.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#68 Post by OLDGUNNER » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:25 pm

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DIY tools - - I realize that this forum is generally concentrated on collecting ‘Surplus Firearms’ and not so much on accuracy. I understand this. When I really started into reloading 58 years ago a 10 shot 100 yard 1 MOA group was a big thing, and a lucky thing. I had never heard of the ‘ladder’ reloading. We just loaded whatever was in the reloading manuals. I just bought a bunch of different weight bullets and that was more or less the extent of the experimenting. I could make a long list of things that I just did not think of to do toward accuracy, and as far as I know at the time they were not generally known by the typical reloader either. You don’t know what you don’t know...still valid today.

This little inside flash hole reconditioner for example that I made a couple of years ago...I have cleaned up the 45-70 cases that I bought from Rapidrob and a few hundred other .45 Auto and .45 Colt, AKA, (.45 Long Colt) brass, maybe over a thousand, and over a thousand .38 Special cases. The .38’s were especially bad because of the relative small area around the flash hole that all of that metal had been redistributed into. As far as I know most of the flash holes are punched into the brass making those things not very uniform. I didn’t really notice this until I could see just what I was doing with the larger .45 brass. I know that these tools may be purchased now but I still like the idea of making tools that I can – just a personal thing.

These end-mills made in the US can get pricy, so I just settle for the imported 1 dollar plus type for wood and aluminum. Before this I have made various things for this but for now this end-mill type is doing just fine. Over the years I have made them from spare drill bits with the ends ground flat. Either way these can be made for all types of brass.

And I have never gotten around to making any kind of dedicated comparison tests to see If I could see any difference in accuracy for this type of brass reconditioning. Years ago a ‘flyer’ was just a flyer and no one really knew what caused it – still today on that.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#69 Post by OLDGUNNER » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:39 pm

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Oh heck - I can't get this to do what I want it to do, same, same.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#70 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:20 pm

I have been bamboozled, some may call it being naïve. Okay, maybe, but I just don’t think ‘crooked’. I like it my way...I have been BAMBOOZLED, by an institution that I have just thought that would be above this. Day before yesterday I was watching a Spelling Bee on TV, I think 8th graders through 12. I have always marveled at how these young kids could spell these obscure, little used words. I have always thought that they had some kind of super intellect where they could spell these random words so quickly. I don’t know if the whole ‘Spelling Bee’ game is this way but now this explains to me at least how it has looked so easy to all of the ‘Spelling Bee’ participants that I have seen.

In the program, all of sudden this women announced that they have used all of the words from the ‘list’, and now they had to take a time out and go through a dictionary and come up with some ‘real’ random words...I thought ‘what?’...Then she said that the list of 1150 words that all of the participants had been given ahead of time to study and (memorize), ed., “Had been used.” What I had thought was an honest ‘Spelling Bee’, was really a memory contest. After the real honest, maybe, Spelling Bee started the last dozen or so quickly came up with a winner. I just had no idea what a crooked and dishonest game that they were all involved in. This is just this ‘onetime’ thing with me that I saw, but now I do believe this is the only way that these kids at these ‘Spelling Bees’ have been able to dazzle us with their spelling prowess.

I’ll bet the woman that let this secret out, really caught all kinds of heck. What a way to teach a kid !!!!
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#71 Post by OLDGUNNER » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Oh boy – Here I have been reloading for 61 years and plus and I am just now getting around to a better look into the inside flash-hole reconditioning. For the past couple of days in some spare time I have been making caliber-specific case inside flash-hole uniforming tools. I did not realize just how bad and ununiform the inside flash-holes could be. If there ever could be a worse ‘out-of-sight, out-of–mind’ thing, this could be it. So far my only measuring system has been just looking at the shiny new brass surface after the resurfacing of the area. This will do for now and possible for now on but I do not believe that most can realize just how bad these cases can be distorted by the flash hole punching. Seventy Five % or so can be called normal within a usable range and the few can be really, really bad. it is no wonder there has always been that unexplainable ‘flyer’ or the bad group. Now I should do a comparison test with picking out some bad cases and comparing with some better reconditioned cases, but that is just another 101 other things that I haven’t gotten around to. So far I have not figured out to make the inside surface completely flat, within reason. That is to say without punching all the metal back flat and remaking a new flash hole. Since this is not reasonable I will assume that this will be a compromise in just making them some-what flat and uniform at the flash hole. With one I made just completely flat and it went through to the primer pocket. I noticed just how thin the metal was just under the primer and with one case I did punch it back flat and measured this thickness. It was not a precision measurement but I got about 15 thousandths, maybe a hair more. I just did this once so don’t hold me to this. I can see right now that for me it will be too much trouble to just treat some thousands of cases so I will be only be doing this to just a few at at time for normal reloading. I did notice that most end-mills are not flat on the working end so that should be something to be aware of. I have had to grind some flat and then sharpen the cutting edges. I know, I have made my own end-mills.

Just for what it’s worth.

I am wondering if the serious ‘Bench-Rest’ guys buy their cases without flash-holes and drill their own. I think if I was into this, I would maybe do this.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#72 Post by Smokey » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:39 pm

I know the long range and bench rest competitors use flash hole uniforming tools when work up their cases. Probably for most of us, we wouldn't see the difference. While I've used competition rifles that shot better than minute of angle from the bench, once I picked it up and shot "from position" the best I normally could do was a 4-inch group at 100 yards. This was in DCM, now CMP competition.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#73 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:24 am

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Here is what I mean by compromise, I would have to decide just how far I would go in resurfacing the flash holes. My To-Do list is just so long that I can’t think of getting around to making a good test on this idea. These are with .45 ACP cases just to make an easier photo but if I would make a test I would use a rifle for more precision testing with say 10 loadings of each kind and 10 without any resurfacing and use my 36 power scope which I have never mounted on anything yet. There are just too many things to do in my retirement.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#74 Post by Smokey » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:29 am

Folks have done comparisons with flash-hole uniforming and it really has made a difference. I was not trying to "trash" the idea. For benchrest shooting it does tighten up the groups.
An important part of the equation is the unsteady human holding the firearm. Folks really need to get off the bench and practice from standing, kneeling, sitting and prone to be able to use the accuracy in the field. What I often see are folks who are proud of their benchrest groups; who can barely stay on the paper offhand. I haven't participated in CMP competition since 2008. My marksmanship has deteriorated as a result. The club was monitored as a "domestic terrorist group" during the Clinton administration. When the wrong people got back in 2008, I had a family and lived much further away so I dropped out. I shoot on my land now (another reason) but I'm no longer wearing out barrels every two years.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#75 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:00 pm

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Oh no, I was not saying that I thought that you were 'trashing the idea', not at all. I understood what you were saying - just that most people over-look this, and I do believe that most do. As in 'not required'. "Out of sight, out of mind." Like the guy who says that he never has any problem with accuracy, he can shoot a five inch group with any rifle he has.
Some time I will make some comparison tests with this. When I finish with my new bench rest. The old one just rotted away - after 24 years. And one thing I learned, no more wiggly wood. I have bought all the necessary concrete block and painted them - just have to get time to put it all together. Have you seen the picture of the bench-rest in the house of this guy and then he just dug a two foot deep 50 yard long trench to shoot in? Cheap and simple -rain or shine. Maybe he didn't even bury it. And a nice reloading room.
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