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SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

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OLDGUNNER
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#46 Post by OLDGUNNER » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:24 am

https://www.bing.com/search?q=figures+d ... sp=1&ghc=1

just like when I mentioned our accountant doing the books like his boss told him to.

I don't know about you, but I keep this in mind always. I do remember a fellow telling my dad doing WW2 that he/they were making and selling Hand Grenades to our government for 25 cents. And this one article says one dollar. I will quote things but I sure don't have to believe them.

A notable math problem bothered me when I first heard it in about 1960 - I couldn't figure it out. One night a few years ago I awoke suddenly and for some reason this problem was on my mind, and it was clear. And I realized, of course: 'It can't be proven that 2 + 2 = 4 but it can be proven that it probable doesn't'. And no, they don't teach this in High School math.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#47 Post by OLDGUNNER » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:00 pm

http://www.ww2f.com/threads/cost-of-ww2-weapons.20291/

Just some more info on some weapon prices – I notice a comment in this one by someone that says, ‘Don’t just believe every article you see on these prices’. Of course!!!! But why do some??????
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#48 Post by OLDGUNNER » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:15 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire

This is a story of the USS Forrestal with John McCain. As far as I know, it was like this. Our little group had one or two guys on each carrier at the time, in the Pacific. I was setting at NAS Cubi Point in the Philippines as a backup in case one of our guys had trouble when they needed help. The day the Forrestal limped in to Subic bay I went down to meet it and as it was being tied up at the pier, it started burning again. But they quickly put that out. Do you see that first picture with the little ball of flames at the start of the fire, there is a picture of McCain as he is running out of there right before that ball of flame erupted. McCain went to another carrier, the USS Oriskany and then got shot down in October and in November I went to DaNang AB and worked there for a year while he was in the Hanoi Hilton.

A coworker in our little group was working on the Oriskany when it caught afire and he said that he was in his quarters at the time and the flames kept him from getting out, and he said the tile on the floor was burning from the heat but he survived by laying between two wet mattresses.

Actually I worked under his dad when he was the, ‘Pacific Theater Commander’ and never realized it at the time. No, I never met either one of them. I was just down the line under him only.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#49 Post by OLDGUNNER » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:59 pm

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=la ... &FORM=VIRE

Can you imagine how shot up that B-17 was and still flying? I was in the Air Force and the first Operation Squadron that I was in had three B-17’s and 10 C-47’s.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#50 Post by OLDGUNNER » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:36 pm

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=di ... ORM=VRDGAR

Just some basics about strain gages – to use something like this for determining cartridge pressures could get too involved for most I realize.

I have made the Flex Sensors in a very basic form and they are easy to make....but for determining cartridge pressures, or more accurately, relative pressure, a more simple direct approach can be used which anyone can do without no more measuring than with a simple calipers or a micrometer. In this case, a one-time simple strain gage. At very low cost – just some scrap wood....and a Caliper or Micrometer and some thin steel, aluminum, copper, or brass sheet, and some super glue. I have never seen this method mentioned. I see it as just another example of something so simple it is over looked. But a very useful thing for anyone trying to experiment with reloading more safety. If one is just into reloading and not too interested in the particulars as with pressure, I would just say forget this.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#51 Post by OLDGUNNER » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:49 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVYMLnXW9uo

I realize that most here are not interested in things like this but some may be. Anyway this I think would be a reliable, ‘fool-proof’ induction heater for annealing the case necks. Well, fool-proof if put together correctly. This guy in the Youtube is dealing with salvaged microwave oven transformers and rigged for 35 amps I think. As I have said I would use a lead-acid battery. I just saw the other day in Walmart the garden type battery for 17 Dollars, maybe 6 X 3 X 4 inches. They should put out 200 amps easily and make the coil about 1/2 inch in diameter which would maybe let one anneal a case in 2 seconds or less. I would not like the 30 seconds that this guy is talking about. I would use a piece of 1/2 inch glass tube in the coil so I could see the color of the case more easily, maybe - Yes Pyrex type. A cheap Pyrex test tube should work. Just look at more YouTubes for help on higher powered heaters if needed. One can make one for maybe 10 dollars in surplus parts plus the battery, or pay up to a thousand for a fancy fully automatic type.

Another use for these Walmart batteries ....over twenty years ago I put one with my ‘power interrupt supply’ for this computer and it hasn’t failed yet. These come with a cheap ‘Lead-acid gel cell’ that will last maybe 3 or 4 years. Of course they want one to buy a new replacement for one for 50 or so. One can do that if they so wish. It looks like it may outlast me.....20 years ago I bought four at a ‘Good Will half price
sale’ for 2 $ each and they were all good with just the bad batteries. If one would like one to last maybe 40 years, they could charge the battery, drain out the fluid, replace a third of the fluid with distilled water and return to the battery. Of course most here won’t be around here in 40 years to find out – that’s a personal problem.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#52 Post by OLDGUNNER » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:36 pm

Some may get mislead when they are looking at some of these high powered Induction heating circuit videos. They may lose the fact that most of them are heating larger pieces of iron and without realizing that I am talking about heating .010 inch typical case brass only....BIG difference. AND...most are using an unnecessarily large coil, much larger than required for normal brass cases. And look at this...two small batteries. But they are high out-put Lithium Ion batteries. But nothing like the 17 $ WalMart battery of course.

//www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Portable+I ... ORM=VRDGAR
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#53 Post by OLDGUNNER » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:56 pm

Here I am 84 and have been seriously reloading since I was about 27 and just this morning I realized where one of the areas that I have been going wrong in and overlooking is in the holding pressure of the case neck on the bullet. During this time I knew that this should be something to be aware of, but I didn’t realize just how aware I should be. I started pulling bullets that had been installed in cases since 1939 until about say 66, and the required, let say pulling power, was so varied that it really surprised me. Some of the bullets were so stuck, that they are still stuck.

I have for quite a while wondered about the annealing of case necks, for example some will say that they may anneal a case neck every 3 or 5 shootings, or whatever. And I have for this same length of time, thought that hey, this should give one a varying neck to bullet pressure EACH TIME for these 3 to 5 reloads. Is that good for accuracy? And therefor I thought that to help eliminate this variance, just anneal the case necks after each and every use to the some amount of annealing that one can control conveniently. I know, ‘everything in life is a compromise’ – this is just another one.

Yesterday I was experimenting with case annealing with a propane torch and found out something....Now some may not agree with this, and that is okay. I realize that a lot of people get their ‘FACTS’ about reloading from something that they have read or told to them by someone and just blindly accept this, without doing any kind, ANY KIND, of self experimentation of their own and worse yet will parrot this information as ‘facts’, something that they just know as a fact. Don’t we all see this on ‘gun forums’ all of the time? Well heck, this is not just with gun forums. It is common for someone to read or see something on TV and convert this to a ‘fact’. I found out a long time ago that if someone is personally involved with something, and then read about it in a newspaper that quite often they will not recognize the story.

I would anneal a case with a propane torch, seat a bullet and then pull that bullet and notice how much it took on the up-lift of the press handle. Some will say that one should not overly heat a case neck to properly anneal a case. This make sense doesn’t it? But, BUT...How much heating is required to ‘properly’ heat a case? I think any answer is ‘subjective’. At the same time yesterday I was working on a ‘Remington 300 Magnum case to reform it to make a mold for reforming these .45-70 cases to a .40-82 case. And I ended up heating that case to as red hot as I could get it, pulled the heat away slowly, then reheat it again as hot as I could get it, and finally it was soft enough for me to work with it, the way that I wanted it. I don’t know what all of this told me, but it told me something.

I think it told me that maybe, maybe, I have to really heat a case neck up pretty well to get some kind of meaningful ‘uniform’ annealing. I will go back and spend some time doing this.

Look down about the 5 th article ----And hey, don’t just believe this because it is printed.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=everythin ... 910CC086C8
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#54 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:36 pm

These are just some of my thoughts on accuracy.
I have over the years thought of doing something like this – just thought of. It is now too late for me to even consider doing anything like this.
Buy 500 cases of something with a low shoulder angle of the same lot.
Buy enough powder of the same lot to load these 500 cartridges. Pick out an appropriate low burning temperature powder.
Buy 500 bench-rest primers of the same lot.
Buy 500 appropriate bullets of the same lot that will just fit the rifle bore.

Use one rifle, a bolt action rifle, or a falling block, or a rolling block. Lap the bore to maybe 800 grit finish.
Take a small bearing ball with fine polishing compound and just true-up the muzzle – using a magnifying glass.
Work up the best repeatable load one can.

Doing the following:

Load each cartridge as close as one can the same way.
Clean the bore after each shot with a wet cleaning patch and then a dry one. I could never understand some of the ideas of cleaning the bore after so many shots. This to me would always be shooting with something different. Cleaning from the breech end.
Using a wooden cleaning rod – a wooden dowel. Again, I could never understand why some will say to use a strong steel cleaning rod.

Of course there would never be an end to how far one can go with these ideas.

For example, one may buy 1000 cases and then weight out the best 500 for uniform weight.
And then some may sort out by case volume as well.
And buy 1000 bullets and choose the most uniform 500.

A couple of other things that I have thought of while working up the load, keep the shooting rounds in a battery powered temperature controlled container as one is shooting at the range after they have been setting in this container since the night before.
One can use a digital non-contact thermometer to try to fire the rounds near the same receiver chamber temperature. Just my work history causes me to do things like this. I spent the last 26 years as a Metrologist working for the US Navy Metrology group.

And then one can use cases after one firing just so the cases may better fit the chamber - as I say there can be no end to working toward some kind of ultimate accuracy – realizing that that ‘can not’ be done.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#55 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:31 pm

Not worth all that much......Some where along the line or maybe every where along the line, one has to just accept what others may have to say about certain things such as rifle powders. It is usually hard to pin down a manufacture of their products with particular aspects.

So...what is one to do...listen to some one that may have more experience with something, or settle for someone that may sound like they have more experience....crap shoot. I would just like to stick with low temperature burning powders. As I may read that in general IMR Powders are known for their lower burning temperatures, designed for their improved barrel life in military rifles. I have measured a lot of things, but nothing like this.

Like what I was saying about choosing a powder as in this link, https://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_relat ... n_rate.htm ...with a reasonable conclusion...of what...?????

I will just go with my gut feelings based on some of my past experiences....I go with the slower velocities for a given bullet weight for better accuracies, and usually this will call for heavier bullet weights than for some normal usages, such as with the .30-06. When I first bought my first, and only, .30-06, I soon learned that those typical 150 or 153 military loadings were sure not the best for me. 168 grain Sierra bullets on the very slow end of loadings I found were the best for me. At that time I was trying to hit Jack Rabbits at 500 to maybe 700 yards. I never did put a scope on that rifle.

Anyway what am I saying is a lot of posted information of others is not necessarily better for another...but one has to start from somewhere...in my opinion.

And then I have read where some bench-rest shooters shoot out their barrels so quick that they change barrels every 150 shots or so. That is just beyond me...how can they even keep up with working up the best load?
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#56 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:54 pm

I can tell you why there can be so much discrepancy and miss information on the purchase prices that are paid for military equipment. After I got out of the Air Force, I went to work for Douglas Aircraft at their El Segundo plant just south of the Los Angeles airport and they were making AD’s, A3D’s, F4D’s, and A4’s at the time. Every plane that left the plant had a different purchase price. They were all made on a ‘cost plus’ basis. In other words, every man-hour was kept track of so this could be done. And then each plane was made in a large part with GFE parts, GFE – Government Furnished Equipment. Douglas didn’t make the instruments, the electrical systems, the machine guns, engines and even some of the air-frame parts. Douglas preformed the assembling. Most of the air frames were made by Douglas. So for someone trying to keep tract of just what the government was paying for them, did not have an easy task. Douglas sure didn’t know. The government was buying parts from different manufactures and just shipping them to Douglas. So if one may think that the government knew what they were paying for their stuff, may also believe in the Tooth Fairy. Someone may feel pressured to come up with an estimated purchase price...and they would come up with a purchase price. With the smaller items like an M1, there would be a more better estimate and an actual contracted price. But still a lot of small parts were made on the ‘Cost Plus’ basis...mainly because the government had a habit of changing the requirements after the production run started, and they still like to do this, with the idea of getting something through Congress and then changing things later. With a change in a General or an Admiral may be a change in their purchasing.

Anyway, just for it’s worth.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#57 Post by OLDGUNNER » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:27 am

Under OTHER'S.....

The other day during a rain squall my wife said, “Oh good, now I don’t have to water my plants.”

This reminded me of a time when we lived outside of Honolulu and I saw in the local newspaper in an article by the editor...”We have gotten tired of answering this question so we will not from now on.”

The question was – “Why do the watering sprinklers along the Freeways come on when it starts raining?” Yes, they were activated by rain detectors.

AND, he didn’t answer again at that time, or later as far as I know.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#58 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:08 pm

COLD SHOT -
Here is something that I have always thought of but have never really been at one place long enough to get into, and that is when having a club shoot, start out with ‘A cold shot’ contest – the first shot....
Maybe with each that desired to, put so much in a pot, and the closest to the ’X’ wins the pot. And this could be say three or more, or whatever, like a ‘50’ yard, and a 100 yard, and a 200 yard...cold shot, if it was popular enough. Just a thought.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#59 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:06 pm

SPELL-CHECK ???
Okay....I can see where this forum program will underline a word when it thinks that it is misspelled in a posting....but where in the heck is anything to click to find where the program is offering a remedy to this situation? I have ‘clicked’ every icon and possible place that I can see with no luck. Is there such a thing?
************************************************
Well....I just went back and tried again...AND, I found out that I could 'right click' on the misspelled word and get three choices for correction. So...that is the solution to my problem.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#60 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:25 pm

I just saw on another forum where a guy claimed to have shot a .1212 inch 5 shot 100 yard group. I would say that he has gotten his reloading repeatability routine down pretty well. I would just like to watch him do some reloading.
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