Well, the board is either fixed, or it's going to run terribly. Cross your fingers and hope for the best. I'm at my technical limit right now.

Poke Holes in my Logic - I want to submit this to my Rep for possible legislative fix.

Info on Second Amendment happenings that impact you!
Post Reply
Message
Author
Inarus
Registered User
Registered User
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:58 pm
Location: Texas, USA
United States of America

Poke Holes in my Logic - I want to submit this to my Rep for possible legislative fix.

#1 Post by Inarus » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:45 am

I wrote the following proposal last week after the Florida shooting. This was the best solution I can come up with in regards to preserving our 2nd amendment and 4th amendment rights while also fighting nut-jobs like the guy who got the gun in Florida from acquiring the types of firearms that make his attack easier.

What I would ask is that you poke holes in my logic. Help me make this more sound so that I can give it to my rep in its best form.

PS: Sorry about two posts in a row....did a lot of typing this weekend.

Stopping mentally Unstable or potentially violent people from acquiring firearms that could be used to create a mass casualty event.

2/18/2018

Purpose
In wake of the shootings in Las Vegas, NV, Sunderland Springs, TX, and Parkland, FL, it is clear that citizens who would otherwise not be restricted from owning a firearm should not have been sold firearms that were later used in mass casualty events. For the purposes of this proposal I will not name the monsters who attacked innocents, I will simply address the locations which the events happened.
In the case of Las Vegas NV, the shooter was known to be on psychotropic drugs that have shown to cause aggressiveness.
In the case of Sunderland Springs, TX, the shooter was known to the Air Force as being convicted on a domestic violence charge (While I will ignore the fact that had the Air Force made the FBI aware of the conviction the NICS check would have been denied at the point of sale) it was obvious to others that the shooter was violent.
And finally, in the case of the Parkland FL shooting the FBI had received information from several sources that the shooter could potentially harm others.
In all three cases the semi-auto firearms in question were sold legally, through an FFL, and all three shooters were approved by the NICS system.
The purpose of this proposal is to recommend steps to the NICS system in hopes that people with the same desires as the monsters previously mentioned are not able to acquire the types of firearms that make these types of attacks possible. It is also done with the goal of not restricting the rights of law abiding citizens who wish to use those types of firearms for wholly lawful purposes (sport shooting, hunting, self-defense, etc). The proposal also has the desire to not violate both the 2nd and 4th amendment rights of those who would wish to purchase firearms – the idea that we should strip someone of a right imply because of “thought” is both preposterous and easily abused by anti-gun policy makers, law enforcement officers, or lawmakers.
So with those goals stated here are my proposals:



Actions needed
On form 4473 (the background check form required of all gun sales through an FFL) reorganize section 16 to the following:

Type 1 Handgun, Type 1 Long Gun, Type 1 Receiver, Type 2 Handgun, Type 2 Long Gun, Type 2 Receiver
All type 1 firearms or receivers are any firearm that is non-semi-automatic or semi-automatic with a non-removeable magazine capacity of five(5) rounds or less. For Type 1 long guns specifically, a semi-auto rifle or shotgun that has a fixed magazine that contains 5 rounds or less would be classified as type 1 firearm (firearms such as the Browning BAR, Browning MkII, Benelli R1)
Type 2 firearms would be any semi-automatic handgun with a factory capacity of 15 rounds or more, any semi-automatic (or automatic) rifle with a detachable magazine with a capacity of 5 rounds or more, or any semi-automatic (or automatic) shotgun with a capacity of more than 5 rounds. NOTE: All class 3 firearms will be processed as Type 2 firearms when performing the NICS check. Suppressors will still be classified as “other.” All completed receivers would be classified as type 2 receiver if they can be assembled to complete a type 2 firearm of any sort.
During call to the NICS background check service the dealer would indicate the type of firearm to be transferred. If type 1 transfer is taking place a standard background check is to be performed as the system is currently in place. If a type 2 transfer is to take place then an additional step will need to take place (more on that step shortly).
However, it is very important that in the log of the NICS check on the FBI side the type of firearm to be transferred is not logged.

Extra step in the FBI NICS check for type 2 firearms

It should be noted that in both the Texas and Florida shootings the FBI should have had the information they needed to deny the background check for the firearms used in the attacks. However, through maleficence in both the Air Force and FBI the information was not made available therefore the killers were able to purchase firearms later used in the murders. The criteria to have a type 2 firearm sale delayed or denied should be broad enough to include people with predications to violence but not include law-abiding citizens who are simply exercising their 2nd amendment rights. So to prevent this in the future the following should be put in place in the event the purchaser is going to purchase a type 2 firearm:
Upon receiving a complaint of possible threatening behavior, as was the case with the Parkland FL shooter, the FBI should record the information of the caller, record the information of the individual to which the complaint is filed, and attach it to the NICS system for that particular name and geographic area; at the minimum the state of residency, as well as the adjacent states where citizens can purchase long guns.
Any person who is prescribed SSRI inhibitors or other mind altering or psychotropic drugs, a commonality between an overwhelming majority of shooters in mass causality events, the prescribing doctor or pharmacy that fills the prescription should forward the information of the individual receiving the medication to the FBI to be attached to the file of the individual receiving the drugs.

It is very important, however, that these two categories are not automatic disqualifiers for denials for a type 2 firearm.

Upon either of the above case happening, if one or the other show up in the NICS check the FFL dealer is told that the sale will be a delay with a 30-day processing period (amended from the current 3 day; as a note this does not change any other delay to 30 days, just type 2 firearm sales with a Type 2 Alert on the FBI files).
Once a Delay has been given to the FFL the NICS agent then sends the file to either an ATF or FBI agent for the purpose of investigating the individual in question. The agent has 30 days to contact local law enforcement, family members, school counselors (if enrolled in any educational institution in the past four years) to then further make a decision as to whether or not the individual has the capacity to responsibly own the type of firearm in question.

Possible outcomes of a type 2 firearm sale:
1. NICS check performed, no FBI attachments to the purchaser – sale is approved and proceeds as normal.

2. NICS check performed, FBI attachment to the purchaser – sale is delayed, file sent to FBI agent. Agent has 30 days to investigate to determine if the individual in question is a potential threat with the firearm in question. If the agent determines that yes, the individual exhibits the warning signs common among shooters in mass causality events the file is sent to a judge to be reviewed and judgement adjudicated. Judge can suspend the sale and put a TEMPORARY deny on all type 2 firearm purchases. Notice will be sent to the purchaser and the FFL, where the purchaser can choose to hire a lawyer and appeal the decision by the judge through either local law enforcement sign off or clearance through psychological evaluation. If the FBI agent in question does not find evidence that the purchaser would be, in their opinion, a threat with the firearm in question then notice is sent to both the FFL and purchaser that file has been reviewed and purchase may proceed. Upon completion of the investigation the FBI agent will attach information to the purchaser’s file that previous purchase has been reviewed and approved and pending no other new information (no further complaints or prescription changes) further purchases should be approved.

3. NICS check performed, FBI attachment to purchaser as type 2 purchase denied in the past three years – firearm sale is denied for any type 2 firearm or receiver. Purchaser is still permitted to purchase any type 1 firearm as listed above.

Relevant information

It is important to realize that there are possibilities that this system could be abused by people on both sides of the issue – people who are wanting to purchase guns for violence using aliases, etc and people who are anti-gun filing complaints with the FBI about any gun owner simply to keep them from purchasing any type of firearm they deem as “not needed to own.” It is vitally important that anyone who would call in to the FBI complaint line not be able to do so anonymously, although any and all information given to the FBI in relation to the individual making the complaint be kept confidential to only the agent receiving the complaint and any agent investigating a type 2 firearm purchase delay. It is also important to understand that anyone who makes a false complaint be charged with a misdemeanor perjury charge if they knowingly made false statements to an FBI agent in relation to filing a complaint about a potentially violent or unstable individual at the discretion of the FBI agent investigating a type 2 purchase delay.

This is not a whole-sale removal of 2nd amendment rights from someone who shows violent or unstable tendencies. This is an attempt to reduce the number of people who would use type 2 firearms for violence from being able to purchase them. Just as we wouldn’t sell a car to someone who has an alcohol problem without keeping a close eye on them, we do not want to sell firearms to people who have a propensity for violence.
Being prescribed psychotropic, mind altering, or SSRI inhibiting drugs is not an immediate removal of 2nd amendment rights. The fact that you’re on those drugs would not disqualify you from owning a type 2 firearm, however it would require the FBI to contact the prescriber to ask, in their professional opinion, if the person receiving the medication would be inclined to fits of violence or rage. No question should be asked in regards to “do you believe the individual receiving the medication is responsible enough to possess and purchase a firearm?” as that can lead to removal of 2nd amendment rights without trial or the right to face the accuser in court. It could also lead to the removal of 2nd amendment rights solely on the opinion of someone who is wholesale anti-gun.
It is also important to note that being denied at type 2 firearm is not permeant. You can appeal the ruling through either psychiatric evaluation or hiring a lawyer to remove the denial or you can wait the three-year period. At the end of three-year period an automatic delay on any type 2 firearm purchase should be attached to the purchaser’s file with the FBI and upon attempting to purchase a type 2 firearm again then the investigation should be opened again with any previous information being inadmissible to the judge if the purchaser is deemed to be a threat a second time. In other words, new information must come to light for a second denial.

If a purchaser is denied a second time the waiting year will be a five-year period. If denied a third time the purchaser will be brought in to court for a hearing by a judge and barring any new information the denial for type 2 firearms will be lifelong.

Conclusion

In conclusion in boils down to the following goal: Stopping people who have an inclination to commit mass murder from purchasing firearms that make that goal much more violent or easy. This is not a complete removal of 2nd amendment rights, those people are still able to purchase some firearms, just not firearms that make mass murder easier. I am not going to address the statement “you can’t legislate evil away,” but I do believe that if the above steps are implemented then we can at least mitigate some of the potential violence in this country.

OLDGUNNER
Member
Member
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:27 pm
Age: 84
Location: USA, Colorado
United States of America

Re: Poke Holes in my Logic - I want to submit this to my Rep for possible legislative fix.

#2 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:32 pm

Okay Inarus - This is not to say that your thoughts and efforts have no merit, because in my opinion they do.
But you asked for other’s ‘negative’ opinions and as usual I have some either way. Again, these are just my first glance thoughts only.
So I will delineate a couple:
1. To the average representative this is way beyond their comprehension, and usually but not always, they would have reservations against proposing things legislative that they don’t understand and will have no proper answers when questioned about these things when the ‘committee’ has to decide whether to pass this on to a full legislative body. As we know, the chances of anything getting out of a committee are usually low. So, rather than start at the bottom of the chain, get the attention of the higher echelon so they will be informed of your concerns even though they will not usually respond and then see if your representative will act on your suggestions. This same idea and philosophy is common at every level of any kind of government. And you are asking your representative to look into a really big involved problem and he may feel overwhelmed even though you have laid out a very good piece of ground work.
2. You are asking for judicial adjudication too early in the process. The courts are so overworked now that this part would not be easily accepted. One will just have to put up with another fallible process that we have to live with.

I can sure appreciate the forethought and effort that you have presented...and good luck.
NRA LIFE MEMBER

ffuries
Member
Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:51 pm
Age: 50
Location: Panama City, Florida
United States of America

Re: Poke Holes in my Logic - I want to submit this to my Rep for possible legislative fix.

#3 Post by ffuries » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:39 pm

You did an awesome job in your writeup, and made a lot of valid points. But in my years of writing congressional complaints, the old adage of KISS was reminded to me over and over. Make it too long or too technical they lose interest real quick. Too much background information and the ideal gets lost.

I would write a short one with just the basic points, if you get a favorable response from him, then let him know you have a more detailed writeup.
Mike
TSgt, USAF Retired
Jan 86 - Sept 08
Aircrew Life Support
"Your Life Is Our Business"
(122X0, 1T1X1, 1P0X1)
NRA Life Member

User avatar
Zeliard
Member
Member
Posts: 208
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:27 pm
Age: 40
Location: Southeast US
United States of America

Re: Poke Holes in my Logic - I want to submit this to my Rep for possible legislative fix.

#4 Post by Zeliard » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:10 pm

Keep this, but also give them the old "executive summary". Something short that they can "sell" to the public.
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon

bitrclngr
Registered User
Registered User
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:50 pm
Age: 27
Location: South Dakota
United States of America

Re: Poke Holes in my Logic - I want to submit this to my Rep for possible legislative fix.

#5 Post by bitrclngr » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:40 am

The anti gun crowd will outright reject this proposal. The firearms absolutists will also reject. We live in a world where politics are super polarized and no reasonable compromise can be made. I applaud your effort.

jbs
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:20 pm
Location: FL
United States of America

Re: Poke Holes in my Logic - I want to submit this to my Rep for possible legislative fix.

#6 Post by jbs » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:46 am

I'm sorry for saying this but you sound like you're from Jersey.
They either have the info to approve or deny, or they don't. If they don't, it is a failure of some bureaucracy to follow required procedures or laws.
Type of weapon or ammo count is meaningless. A slower course of fire to an experienced shooter may very well cause more casualties than the left's fully semi auto rifle.

Post Reply

Return to “Second Amendment Front”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests