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Interesting Gun Failures

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72 usmc
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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#16 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:26 pm

So I found out that the standard military ball WW II ammo is 162 grain round nose FMJ with a size of .267 see page 298 Chegia ,Simonelli, & Riccio 2016:298. The book ref. is, The Model 1891 Carcano Rifle

The authors indicate on page 300 that .264 bullets are ok in some rifles but inaccurate in others. They indicate that only the Hornaday .264 bullets with 160 grain round nose work with reasonable results see page 298. They also indicate that the .264 spitzer pointed bullet is inaccurate, but do not mention what ammo has these as factory production? The state the best results are with Hornady special produced bullet in .2675 that came out in 2002. Not sure if this is the bad bullet design Slowbob is talking about?
They also mention Norma ammo is good, but state the extraction groove is too narrow and causes problems. At $45 a box that is nuts. And its .264 too boot, very bad! Prvi cases have corrected the extraction groove problem. The authors also state that the Hornady .2675 160 grain RN bullets are " an exact copy of the profile of the original 162-grain FMJ bullet." pp. 298-299. Then on page 299 they go into specific powders can cause the bullet to stop in the bore. This is really nuts. See the book for the two powders the authors recommend. They are new stuff I never heard of H414 and WC760?? I just want to buy a box of correct factory ammo that is safe to use and can fire like a normal rifle. As indicated Prvi must be .264 because the bullet tumbles down the range with side hits or misses with the target at 75 yards. I basically do not shoot my 5 Cavalry carbines because they do not hit anything with Prvi ammo. I like there looks and feel, but as shooters I will take any other rifle. Sort of put these in a junk rifle category like Spanish made Mausers.

Maybe I got to use prvi cases and Slowbobs lead bullets. But what brand mold or place sells it, and what is the mold number to make or buy these lead bullets. Who has them. There appears to be a wide variation in groove diameters in Carcanos. I wonder if I can use IMR 3031 in a 6.5? I can not find the lead bullet link :think:

reloading for a Carcano seems to be a dangerous adventure: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... mm-Carcano

This chart at least provides bullet size
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/c ... _data.html
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#17 Post by wjh » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:49 pm

72usmc,

The bullets he is referring to are the Hornady .267 bullets. Some people REALLY hate them and consider them dangerous. The key to using them is to FOLLOW the Hornady recipe in their reloading manual and slug your rifle. You've got to have the proper diameter. I have some original Carcano ammo and the bullets appear the same. Hornady was trying to mimic the original bullet. Now that we have talked about this, we have opened the door for lots of comments. LOL

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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#18 Post by slowbob2 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:00 pm

The bad bullet is the .2675 Hornady 160 round nose . Tell Graff that is not the bullet used in some of their loaded ammo , since THEY say it is . Also Graff used the Privi made and headstamped cases . Hornady's load does NOT fix the problem . Over the years the land and groove dia used on Carcano's changed , and did vary a .001's as made anyway . That is why the bullet will work in some rifles and not in others . Graff , Privi or other ammo with any other bullet will not have this problem . I have counted over 100 case failures from this bullet . I can blow out a primer pocket at will in certain Carcano rifles with the Hornady load .

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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#19 Post by wjh » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:50 pm

I think we know who is not a fan.LOL
They do work in some and not in others. I never had a case failure. I've read about some failures and many times (not all) they didn't follow the Hornady recipe.

Oh well, we could debate this forever. It's been debated for 15 years or so. Lots and lots of threads on the Hornady bullet. My experience was with my hand loads. I never bought the factory stuff.

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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#20 Post by slowbob2 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:42 am

Those bullets in factory loads are the reason the two rifles in the video had blow outs . They also my be the reason another guy , in another video , had blow outs in two Vetterli's . He did not understand either . I bought 1000 of the Hornady bullets when they first came out and tested them in many rifles . I have some rifles that will shoot them with no problems , some that will not . Even in the best shooting rifles they do not shoot better enough accuracy wise to make it worth using them . My most accurate Carcano rifles use other bullets . Since I am loading for over 50 different 6.5mm Carcano rifles , there really is no reason for me to used the .2675 bullets in Carcano's . I do use the .2675 bullets in a few for my very early Type 38 Arisaka rifles [ .271 dia grooves and NO gain twist ] with great results .

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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#21 Post by garra » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:02 pm

I have some original Carcano ammo with the silver plated bullets. With a micrometer they measure .266. But if I use a caliper and rotate the bullet in the jaws I get from .264-.266.

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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#22 Post by slowbob2 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:44 pm

They are not silver plated . That is a slick nickel alloy . The Italian military bullets are .2658 dia . They are make that way for a reason .

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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#23 Post by wjh » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:45 pm

Most of you have probably read this, but if not, here you go. From the man himself that developed the load for the infamous Hornady bullet.
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/c ... emary.html

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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#24 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:43 am

WJH Thank you, I am printing this one out.
So slug the carcanos if tight use Privi ammo as is; if the bore is larger then use the Hornady bullet. What is the size of a tight bore that I can use Prvi .264 normal factory ammo ? And what is the size of a larger bore (oversize where i should use a .2675 hornady 160 grain bullet? Please refresh my mind.

So the Lee die is bad since is is set up for .264 (a .268 bullet sticks in the die) and the shell holder is incorrect . You need a Hornady or RCBS shell holder. What is needed is the 2002 Hornady 6.5 Carcano die set (the cost is around $50) for the larger.268 bullet and the die made for a cartridge base diameter of .447. Not sure what Lees die set is made for, but it is not set up for the .2675 Hornady 160 grain bullet bullet. I was told lees set comes with 2 pins and it may be set for a larger bullet. I wonder what the RCBS die set is made for?
Looks like the Hornady set is best-- i wonder what CH4D's 6.5Carcano set is made for ? Does mostly everyone use Hornady 's set?
Use Hornady 160 grain , .2657 bullet with the exact components.
Use Prvi Brass 6.5 Carcano
Use hodgdon H414 powder
Use Winchester large rifle MAGNUM primers
Follow formula specifications to the letter.
When firing check for a hole on the paper, check for backed out primers- read the brass. After each shot be sure you have a hole in the paper, or if not, you must check the bore for stuck bullet before the next shot.
All I have is a 6.5 Lee Hand loader set in the card board from the 1960s. My guess this relic will not work for reloading. It basically neck sizes only.
IMR 30 31 will not work, so I need just about everything on the list to shoot my 5 Calvary carbines :roll: :doh: :doh: :snooty: :think:

Is the Hornady's 6.5 Carcano factory ammo with a .2675 bullet OK, or does it not follow the above formula and it will produce blown out primers unless shot in oversize bores. What is the size of the bore when I should start to think of using Hornady larger bullets. The two I fired have good bores, but with Privi ammo are all over the place on a standard 100 yard CMP target, most off paper. What is considered a tight bore, and what is considered a oversize bore as far as measurements on the slug? For example if I get a .263 -.265 measurement the Prrvi .264 ammo many work OK , but if I measure .266-.269 maybe .270?---then I should use Hornady factory ammo ( if it is safe and complies with the suggested Stevens load???) or do I have to do my reloads as per suggested by the Steven's link? Like any rifle, on the lead slug, I Measure across two opposite high points with the calipers on the slug. Do it 3x and take the average.
Reference on slugging here
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

Suggestions? Is Hornady factory 6.5 Carcano ammo using magnum primers, the larger bullet, and correct Hogdon H414 powder???????
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#25 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:20 pm

Or can I use some store bought .266-.268 lead round nose bullets where I do not have to spend 100 bucks on a mold. Slowbob what type of lead bullet do you use. I want something easy and cheep , just buy the lead bullets- no molding, reforming, resizing. Something that will shoot and hit the target. Maybe I can pull my Prvi .264 and drop in the lead replacement long round nose bullet ????
Is there a common lead bullet one can order that provides good results? What is the load using Prvi brass with such a store purchased lead bullet and would I use a magnum primer or just a regular primer? Powder type?
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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#26 Post by Smokey » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:21 am

There are several small companies that sell ready to load cast bullets in a multiple of sizes, weights and configurations.
Try seearching online.
I use these folks for searches:
https://duckduckgo.com/
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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#27 Post by slowbob2 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:08 am

My accuracy standards are probably tougher than most people's . I do not use cast bullets in Carcanos as they do not shoot well in most for several reasons . 1. Gain twist rifling tears up cast bullets . Deep rifling deforms cast bullets . You would need a cast bullet to fit the bore on the one rifle you were using . Back to jacketed bullets , 1. The land and groove size both matter , it is mainly a tight land size that causes the problem with the .267+ bullets . 2. Small dia .263 ish and those with a boat tail will shoot very poorly in a Carcano , worse as the bore size get larger as found in the early made rifles . A .264 dia long round nose bullet will work best as it will stay straighter as it " rides " the lands . You do NOT want to use the powder charge from Privi jacketed loads for a cast bullet . It does not matter what load you use , the .267 + Hornady bullet will cause problems in tight bore guns . The problem is too thick a jacket [ resists being engraved by the deep rifling and being RE-engraved as the twist changes ] , way too much bore friction [ bullet dia too large , too much surface area on the long cylinder shaped bullet , a " non-slick " jacket material [ the original military bullet was made with a slick nickel alloy for a reason ] . Nothing you do with the load will change these physical facts . Look at it this way . It does not take that much force to knock a lead slug down a barrel with a hammer , it is really hard to do that with a jacketed bullet , no way are you going to do it with a solid .

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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#28 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:50 pm

Thanks for the info. OK forget a cast bullet, what jacketed long nose bullet do you recommend in .264 ?? What die do you use. If it is a long nose .264 will it work with a Lee die set that come with both a .264 and .268 pin or is it best to buy the Hornady set. I wonder if it comes with 2 pins? Or is it only set up for .268???? If I see some old 6.5 military ammo i am going to buy it , but all you generally see is the 7.35 stuff. i think all the surplus 6.5 is long gone and shot up. I never see any at WI gun shows. Anyone have a CH4D 6.5 Carcano set. I like there older dies for the RCBS Jr press.

Is this the bullet you are talking about to use?

160 grain 10.37 Hornady Round Nose .264 IMR -3031 24.0 1.56
see link https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/6 ... terlock-rn#!/
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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#29 Post by slowbob2 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:38 pm

Yes that is the regular Hornady .264 dia round nose bullet . Just load it with a regular expander ball made for .264 bullets .

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Re: Interesting Gun Failures

#30 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:58 pm

Thanks I will try those and the recommended formula with my IMR 3031. I stumbled onto this interesting info. while looking for/at Carcano reloading info. see lower link.

I can not hit a target with any of my 5 Carcanos with Prvi ammo. Not sure if it's all :text-bs: but an interesting read. :roll: But a Carcano would be the last rifle anyone in there right mind would use from what I see shooting one and trying to hit a target on paper at 75 yards. I got better luck just throwing the Prvi factory cartridge at the target. Maybe all Carcano calvary carbines are garbage as far as shooters. The thin pig sticker bayonet is not too robust either? They do look nice.
Makes one think...
Kennedy & the Carcano :shock: very, very, very, long winded you need an hour or two :lol:
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/ar ... 13292.html
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