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VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

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VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#1 Post by Zeliard » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:26 pm

Originally posted by TikiRocker.

RIFLE No5 Mk1 ROF FAZAKERLEY

# - Only two factories manufactured the No5 Mk1;

* Royal Ordnance Factory (ROF) Fazakerley (F) in Liverpool.

* BSA Birmingham Small Arms, Shirley (M47C).

# The official approval date of the No5 Mk1 was 12th Sept 1944. Production numbers are an ongoing area of study, please see the No5 Mk1 Serial Number Survey at this forum.

* Fazakerley Production - generally given to be 169,807, with an unspecified number to be added. Manufacture generally assumed to have ceased December of 1947. At this writing the No5 Serial Number survey supports this assertian as the latest serial number we have recorded for ROF is AC6252 - 12/47.

* BSA's contract is said to have been terminated short of the original 100,000 rifles, finishing at 81,329. However, observed serial numbers from the ongoing survey here, and Skennerton's own assertians, support the fact that production continued through 1947-1948.

# - Production markings on the Fazakerley models are found.

* On the left flat of the receiver between the receiver ring and ejector screw. It is common for Fazakerley No5's to have all production information, date, year and serial number (electro-pencilled) on the receiver.

* BSA No5's have a slightly different system for production markings with the model designation - (No5 Mk1) - usually being E/P'd - (electro-pencilled) - on the left flat of the receiver. The factory markings and serial number are engraved on the left side of the butt socket/receiver wrist.

* It must be noted that BSA markings very often run from faint to non existent and may be difficult to detect.

* Another difference between ROF and BSA is that ROF maintains month/year in the production data, where BSA only provides the year.

# - Matching serial numbers.

* ROF serial numbers can be located on the left flat of receiver, rear flat of bolt handle, left side of barrel knox beneath hand gaurd, sometimes on the inside of the trigger guard and base of the magazine from mid 1946. The underside of the fore-end was approved to be serial number stamped late in 1946.

* BSA serial number can be located on the left side receiver wrist/butt socket, rear flat of bolt handle, left side of barrel beneath hand guard and in other places mentioned above, though not as commonly.

* Serial numbers for all No5's are a maximum of 4 numbers with a single or double letter prefix. Usually you will see a 4 digit serial number on 99% of No5 Mk1's, but there are instances of 3,2 and single number codes also. The main point being that a 4 number serial is the limit in the numerical sequence . If you have a rifle with a 5 digit serial number then you will likely have a No4 conversion and not a No5.

# - Lightening of the No5 Mk1, unique parts and weeding out fakes.

* All No5's have a hollowed and lightened bolt handle. Some No4's are observed to have the hollowed bolt handle also. Not to be confused, the diameter of the No4 bolt handle hole is smaller than that of the No5.

* The barrel of the No5 Mk1 has unique fluted lightening cuts in the barrels nocks. These are a key identifier of a legitimate No5 Mk1 and no other Enfield rifle has these.

* The No5's butt stock is uniquely shaped, it is heavily hollowed and lightened from the inside, has a sloping wedge cut recess in the right hand side and is fitted with a unique rubber shoulder pad. The butt cap with D shaped sling keep integral is located on the right hand side.

* No5 Butt stocks came in three lengths, Long marked L, Normal, and Short marked S. The Long butt is 1/2" longer than normal and Short is 1/2" shorter than Normal.

* There is a noticeable difference in the style of cut in Butt stock recess of ROF Fazakerley and BSA M47/C produced rifles. The BSA recess is a little rougher and appears skewed by comparison to the ROF recess.

* We see the capped fore-end beginning in early 1946. Some were found on the early 1944 experimental models but the majority are post war. It was requested that a fore-end cap be introduced for protection of the fore-end itself and also to guard against moisture entering the end grain. There are two distinct shapes of fore-end cap, early trials rounded sheet steel cap, and squared sheet steel cap with brass rivets.

* The No5 Mk1 stock bolt is lightened and waisted.

* Backsights are designated the No5 Mk1 machined, or Mk2 pressed sheet metal expedient ladder sight, both with a maximum setting of 800 yards. These are not to be confiused with the 1300 yard Mk1 sights as found on the Rifle No4. The Mk2 backsight is seldom seen and was delcared obsolete soon after WW2 ended.

* You will not find the rectangular lump on the front right side of the receiver wall unlike a No4 receiver. There are several milled lightening cuts on both right and left hand side of the No5 receiver. A key indentifier between the No4 and No5 receivers is the stepped cut on the left side of the No5 receiver behind the charger bridge and beneath the back sight. The rifle No4 continues in a straight line by comparison.

* The action cover loop of the No5 trigger guard is an hour glass loop and waisted, unlike the even U of the No4 cover.

* The No5 has a unique conical flash eliminator at the muzzle end with bayonet lug beneath.

# - The bayonet for the No5 Mk1 is itself designated the Bayonet No5 Mk1. An 8" Bowie style bayonet, the No5 Mk1 was manufactured by Wilkinson, Viners, Elkington, ROF Poole with Radcliffe involved in some assembly.

* Early Wilkinson (WSC - S294) bayonets have only one rivet in the handle. Later bayonets all have two rivets in the handle.

# - Many No5 Mk1 rifles will be found with the BNP British Nitro Proof mark, later used as a Commercial Proof mark for Export Sale. These test proof markings are also found on the barrels on No5's.

# - Rifles stamped with 'ENGLAND' saw service or were supplied to countries outside the U.K through government agencies.

# - For detailed information on Serial Numbers, refer to the No5 Mk1 Serial number survey.

Overall Length = 3ft 3.5"
With Bayonet = 4ft 0.1"
Weight W/O Bayonet = 7 lb. 1oz
With Bayonet = 8 lb. 3oz
Rifling = 5 groove Enfield.
Twist = Left Hand, 1 turn in 10"
Groove Depth = .005 in.
Width Of Grooves = .0936 in.
Muzzle Velocity = 2,440 ft/sec

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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#2 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:46 am

Thanks Zeliard for restoring my favorite post. Glad you found a source for photos.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#3 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:20 pm

A nice little book on the JC is Alan M. Petrillo's 1994, 33 page soft cover book, The Number 5 Jungle Carbine by (British Firearms)

Amazon is the easy way to get it.
41AWV1CKJXL._AC_US218_.jpg
41AWV1CKJXL._AC_US218_.jpg (8.94 KiB) Viewed 2416 times
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#4 Post by PhilRich » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:07 pm

Phil

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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#5 Post by Alan De Enfield » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:32 am

Zeliard wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:26 pm
Originally posted by TikiRocker.

RIFLE No5 Mk1 ROF FAZAKERLEY


# - Many No5 Mk1 rifles will be found with the BNP British Nitro Proof mark, later used as a Commercial Proof mark for Export Sale. These test proof markings are also found on the barrels on No5's.

# - Rifles stamped with 'ENGLAND' saw service or were supplied to countries outside the U.K through government agencies.

I would be interested in the source of these two bullet points as they are both incorrect.

Edit to correct statements :

Many No5 Mk1 rifles will be found with the BNP British Nitro Proof mark, later used as a Commercial Proof mark for Export Sale. These test proof markings are also found on the barrels on No5's.

a) BNP does not mean "British Nitro Proof", there are two proof houses in the UK (London & Birmingham), so it can be identified who undertook the proofing the London House Mark is NP (Nitro Proof) and the Birmingham House is BNP (Birmingham Nitro Proof)
b) The 'proof marks' marks have been a 'civilian / commercial' mark in England since 1637 and all guns sold must have such a mark, it is illegal to sell a firearm without valid proof marks. Military firearms are exempt, but often carry military proof marks. These military proof marks are not acceptable as civilian proof marks and any military firearm that is for sale ON THE UK CIVILIAN market must have UK civilian proof marks (NP or BNP)
c) When military firearms are sold to purchasers outside of the UK then they are NOT "proof marked for export", the purchaser can opt to have them proofed if they require it, but it is not a UK condition of export.

Rifles stamped with 'ENGLAND' saw service or were supplied to countries outside the U.K through government agencies.

We do not mark "England" on firearms exported, the importing country will have its own regulations (example US pre-1968 insisted that country of origin was stamped on the rifle). To avoid problems at (say) US Customs, some of the importers would use a UK bonded warehouse and employ local workers to stamp "England" (or whatever their countries requirements were) onto the rifle. Others would have a bonded warehouse in the US where the stamping would be undertaken prior to going thru customs.
Marking "England" for export is NOT a UK requirement.
Last edited by Alan De Enfield on Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#6 Post by Kevinofborg » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:50 pm

Alan,

We may not get an answer to that one as I am not sure that TikiRocker (the original poster on the OLD forum) has made it back to the NEW forum. Zeliard is just mining the wayback machine to add back some of the last content. Maybe you can add in a reply what the marks talked about above tell you about this type of rifle?

Thanks
Kevin
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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#7 Post by timbo1955 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:28 pm

Not knowing any better , I bought one of those Santa Fe specials back in the 60"s , thought it was the real deal , dumped it on my nephew 4 years ago , no regrets

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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#8 Post by 72 usmc » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:52 pm

A very informative history on the JC use post WW II, now you know why the bayonet lug is cut on your JC :doh: :shhh:

No.5 Mk.I Jungle Carbine: post-WWII use
NOVEMBER 4, 2015 JWH1975

A great article https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/201 ... -wwii-use/
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#9 Post by Tommy Atkins » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:35 pm

Now here's what I've been looking for regarding No5's with no bayo lug.
Mayne it IS part of the history after all?
After the Confrontation war, the Malaysian army began phasing out the Jungle Carbine. Many were passed to the Police Field Force, a paramilitary law enforcement force which was basically a light infantry unit trained for internal security duties in the jungle. The Police Field Force used the No.5 Mk.I into the early 1970s, and retained some in storage until the force was rolled into the Royal Malaysia Police’s new General Operations Force in 1997. Many Jungle Carbines which entered the worldwide sport shooting and collector’s markets in the early 2000s are ex-Police Field Force, identified by a letter “P” marking and two- or three-digit serial on the buttstock. Many of the ex-Malaysian No.5 Mk.Is had the bayonet lug removed.
https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/201 ... -wwii-use/

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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#10 Post by 72 usmc » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:28 pm

I noticed a page from the original post is missing. So here is the page from my print out from 2013. It was the original reply to Alan's comment as to the source of TikiRocker's information. Click on it to enlarge the scan.
JC Page.jpeg
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#11 Post by Alan De Enfield » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:08 am

72 usmc wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:28 pm
I noticed a page from the original post is missing. So here is the page from my print out from 2013. It was the original reply to Alan's comment as to the source of TikiRocker's information. Click on it to enlarge the scan.
JC Page.jpeg
I am sure that at the time Skennerton was working on information provided, but as time goes on and new information becomes available a number of things we all thought were indisputable have been proved to be wrong, that is not dicrediting Skennerton, or any other author, and I acknowledge the effort that goes into researching these things (as I have 'been there myself')


There are a number of (now known to be) incorrect facts in Skennertons books and that is why new editions are produced - using 'recently come to light information'.
"When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over many years,

the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic". Dresden James

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Re: VISUAL REFERENCE GUIDE - Rifle No5 Mk1 Fazakerley

#12 Post by Alan De Enfield » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:17 am

I would like to take the opportunity to correct another 'bullet point' in the original post :

We see the capped fore-end beginning in early 1946. Some were found on the early 1944 experimental models but the majority are post war. It was requested that a fore-end cap be introduced for protection of the fore-end itself and also to guard against moisture entering the end grain. There are two distinct shapes of fore-end cap, early trials rounded sheet steel cap, and squared sheet steel cap with brass rivets.

I could go into great detail but will just leave it to Peter Laidler to answer - after all he was there, & he was repairing the No5s.

No 5 Capped Forends

It was pointed out to me that originally, the fore-ends were left OPEN for the tropics (Malaya etc) but would be closed off for temperate climes. This didn't work in practice because we saw hundreds of 'capped' fore-ends in service there. And as sure as night follows day, they'd rot out underneath so, if the fore-end was still sound, we simply removed them and make good the woodwork by rounding off. And once they'd been rounded off, you couldn't tell whether they were originally 'capped' or not. This didn't happen to the No4 of course because the fore-end caps were open at the top while the No5's were enclosed if I remember correctly.

DO NOT varnish the woodwork as it does indeed seal in the moisture. Just leave it open and well oiled with linseed. Even the jungle couldn't defeat a well linseeded fore-end (well, it did occasionally, but after many years.....) My dad always said that a polish with French polish or button polish did allow the wood to breath if you wanted a bit of a shine or even good beeswax furniture polish. Anything that leaves the pores clear

One further point was that most of the big armouries had the No5 rifles muzzle down in the racks to prevent the oil attacking the old rubber butt pads. Later ones seem to fare better as they had a high neoprene (?) content. I suppose being muzzle down didn't help when the wet fore-end was draining down into the cap

Well, it's rambled on a bit but hope it's answered the Q.




When No5 forends were not available, he would be forced to modify No4 forends and he has written a detailed article on how to do so, and fill in the channel left once the No4 is cut down to length and profile.

If the No5 'action' (MOD call them 'bodies') were damaged they were replaced with No4 actions (bodies), so you could end up with a No5 rebuilt with No4 woodwork and a No4 action. And - Not a Bubba in sight !!!

Peter Laidler again :

I think I mentioned earlier that when we were doing the big Crown Agents FTR programme, it was priced (so I was told) that if 70 came in, 70 went out and if some were ZF’d (scrap) then they’d be replaced from our ANZUK (I think this was Aust, NZ and UK stockholdings) mobilization stores from the huge …., and I mean HUGE Ordnance stockpiles close by at Johore Bahru. So we would cannibalise No5’s and if necessary, send them out with No4 bodies.
"When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over many years,

the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic". Dresden James

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