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SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

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OLDGUNNER1
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#226 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Sat May 18, 2019 5:33 pm

DUMBED DOWN---What would you call this? Just dumb after being dumbed down – maybe. I realize that examples like this are endless. But I see one example here. A fellow opened a repair shop for ATV’s, snow mobiles, etc. I took a snow blower in for some repair. In back he had a couple of dozen of broken ATV’s and snow mobiles. A couple of years later I saw a hundred. Last year I saw over two hundred, maybe more and asked him what he was doing with all of those. Oh, would you like to buy one?

Have you seen the advertisements on TV for ATV’s and Snowmobiles, and noticed that all have someone riding them going at full speed. Of course they have someone going over a selected and safe area and have a rider increasing his speed gradually up to a point that he can’t go any faster. Okay, that is what the person sees on the TV ad. Joe Smucketelly buys one and just knows that they are meant to be ridden as fast as can be, that is what he sees. Joe Smucketelly immediately starts to ride his snowmobile over snow that has covered stumps and rocks. He breaks his snowmobile and possibly a few bones. He takes it into this guy with the repair shop. He gets a high repair estimate...oh, that’s half the cost to begin with. Well, the repair guy will buy his broken machine for whatever. And he now has a bunch of broken machines. He has two full time workers that repair these, and he sells them for whatever. A week later he may be buying it back again. The same with the ATV’s...I find it the norm for people driving these at full blast and I think just because they see them on the TV ads. doing it. A local fellow here buys a ATV, lets his teen age kid ride it in back of the house....the kid turns it over with himself underneath and is found dead. Of course being too dumb can have unfortunate consequences but doesn’t it help to have a little something going for you to begin with? Not going to school after the eighth grade is one’s choice, but I think, I think that one will enjoy life a little better if they have learned more things before and during that long hard road ahead. I know that I enjoy life better after knowing things around me that I have learned about.

Did you see on yesterday’s network news?....”Orange juice will lead one to an early death.” Well if one hasn’t been living in a cave they should know this, right...wrong, most don’t understand this and....your friendly family doctor is not going to tell you. It is counter productive for him to tell you.

One time at the local super market my family doctor was checking out ahead of me and I notice that he was buying full fat regular milk (4 %)....and I was buying 2 %. The next time that I saw him in his office I mention it and he explained. The sugar content was the same for the full fat and the 2 % milk. if one uses the the ‘non fat milk’ they are drinking just basically sugar water. Which is better for one’s body, the full fat milk of course. It is not really full fat of course. When we were raising our two children I bought the extra rich milk at 2 cents more per half a gallon (6 % fat). Now-a-days people do not understand this – I don’t see it in the markets anymore. They have successfully been Dumbed Down. Remember when the mayor of New York City tried to get regular soft drinks over 16 ounces outlawed and he was shot down. Why, because the people had already been Dumbed Down enough.

One time my son said that his sister could never pass a 7-11 without buying a big soft drink. She could not understand that soft drinks will kill you. She died at 58 from complications of extra sugar consumption.

When the US Navy ships would leave the west coast for a six month Pacific cruise it was imperative that they would have enough Coke for the tour or be able to resupply. Why, money - the DoD knows that retirement money for the military comes out of their budget. The more soft drinks that they can get the sailors to drink while in the service, the sooner they will die after and therefor they will have more money to play with on other things. I have been on the big carriers and they have Coke machines as handy as can be. Yes, yes, a conspiracy of death. You ex sailors know that in the Navy their chow halls typically have available all the soft drinks that one can drink. Dumbed Down, you betcha.

Some of us may think that insurance companies would like to reduce costly accidents...if one would believe this, they have been Dumbed Down. The more that insurance companies have to pay out in claims, the more money they will make. Think about it.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=news%20ab ... CE95488A10

http://time.com/4279538/low-fat-milk-vs-whole-milk/ I just happen to believe this – you pays your money, you takes your choice.


An interesting book is, ”THE HIDDEN PERSUADERS “ by Vance Packard.

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#227 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Sun May 19, 2019 11:52 pm

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Rambling # 13

This is me and my not so deluxe marine accommodations on DeNang Air Base, Vietnam, I spent quite a few nights in that bunker. My bunk was right in side the wall behind me. The lower picture was on the first morning of TET 68 just a quarter of a mile down the road with our work site right across a 15 foot roadway. All the rockets that came in were 5 inch rockets and all set for a range of 5 miles. That’s just the way the Russians made them. And they were accurate. They could hit a 50 yard circle every time. The VC would sneak in through the marine 6 mile parameter and set them up in groups of three. As if they would just sneak in one guy, and he would fire a group of 3 and then run to the next group and so on. The reason for the max of 3 was that the 105 Howitzer's had trajectory return firing and this is all that they figured they could fire and get out of there. They had the 155mm’a too. They just had this system and it worked and we had no recourse. The fire in the lower picture was from the small-arms and flare dump and it cooked off for two days. The bomb dump fire (caused by a grass fire) ???? caused a lot of damage in July before a half mile away in the day time and tore up our lab a bit. I could never figure out just why the military thinks that it is imperative that they store all the munitions of a type in one place. I understand the ease of the logistics but they pay a high price for this. As the ammunition cooked off the brass would fall on the roof of out lab. Can you visualize running in and out of the lab with 20 mm brass falling Willie Nillie. Some would carry a cushion over their head. I have the gruesome pictures but there is no need for that. I run all over over with that bike with out it being stolen. That was pure luck. I paid 99 dollars for it new in the PI and took it with me and after 11 months took it back to the PI with me. There is a picture of the pile of destroyed planes on the base here somewhere-I’ll try to find it. Oh yes, the front lines on the first morning of TET was just 50 yards to my right. And later they had 7 inch rockets with a 7 mile range. The only time that I was injured was one time I was caught in town on my bike in a rocket attack and I ran down an embankment and crawled into a culvert and received a little one inch cut on a leg.

Anywho – Had I been dumbed down enough to put up with that?

This is just some info of what was going on on the base if interested https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Da_Nang_Air_Base

Okay, here is some of the action when I was there. Just watch one after the other as they come on...the forth or so is about what they called the ammunition dump with all the damage on the south end of the base as the Bomb Dump blew up. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=de ... ORM=VRDGAR

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#228 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Mon May 20, 2019 8:28 pm

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One of my Bubba’ed 7.35’s. I haven't put a set of nice sights on it yet.

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#229 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Tue May 21, 2019 12:31 am

Okay...this is for VMASCIUP2000. I was just looking back over some old postings and I saw one where VMASCIUP 2000 had said that he was ‘lost’ after I mentioned that I had read where a particular government purchasing agent had specified on a particular Mossberg purchasing contract for some M44US .22’s for the bores to be dry lead lapped. I can see where he may have been lost because I just mentioned it and didn’t fully explain.
I just spent quite a bit of time reading about these rifles and I didn’t come across the same article but one mentioning the same thing.

As I had said that I had bought three of these and I thought that one of them had the bore well leaded and it didn’t shoot worth a darn, until I brush all of that lead out of the bore, then It shot like it should. I just found this second comment about this feature. I don’t know any more about it than this. https://www.carolinashootersclub.com/th ... -nc.30062/
I had never heard about this bore treatment either. Can this be true about this being more expensive and more better, I don’t know. He wanted 300 for his back in 2009, wow. And as them being some great shooters, I don't see it compared to some other.22's that I have. As we know .22's are so ammunition sensitive.

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#230 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Thu May 23, 2019 12:31 am

RADON https://www.radon.com/radon_facts/ RADON can be looked at like sugar – you are on your own. I used two free Radon test kits to check the Radon level here in our house, and yes we have measurable Radon levels, but the levels were said to be below the danger level, well in the safe area. But how many go ahead and have the cancer and do not have any idea if it may have been caused by Radon or not. One should be able to get the free test kits. But insurance companies especially and the ‘government’ will not readily tell you this. I am breathing in some Radon with very breath in our house. I don’t really know about outside, but in every breath with some gun smoke that one may take.

Radon comes from the natural decay of uranium. Uranium is the most widely dispersed metal in the earth’s crust. It is said by some that there is uranium in every bit of food that one takes – I guess that’s true. As it has been said that there is some measurable uranium in ever grain of sand on our planet earth....and every natural thing. Maybe even unnatural things.

Anywho.....

Let me make an addition to this....These mountains are constantly rising, just like they have since whenever and natural gas get into water systems all of the time. The other night I was looking out on our deck and I noticed a closed half container of water with the reflection of the moon on top of the water. There was no wind - dead calm, and the image wiggled...ah ha, another small earthquake, which is normal since we have dozens of small earth quakes every day. And I thought, these small earth quakes break up pockets of natural gas all of the time, soooooo, why can’t pockets of Radon gas break loose and come up through the cracks...there fore we never know just what a Radon level may be. What a deal. I sure wouldn’t know.

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#231 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Mon May 27, 2019 5:24 pm

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RAMBLING # 15

Oh well, a while back, over a year ago, someone posted that they thought that it would be interesting to try checkering but I gathered from the gist of their posting, which I agree with, that it could be kinda pricey just for one because with just getting starting could use up the better part of a hundred dollar bill. Soooo, I thought that I would see what I could do about that.

I made a dozen different checkering tools out of wood, nails, hack saw blades and metal from Chinese scissors blades. I broke hacksaw blades into short pieces, etc. But I liked the ones I made from Chinese scissors blades – easier and nicer to work with. All that had to do was file the teeth in with Swiss Files. With the nails I chose to case harden the end with the teeth which was no problem but with the Chinese scissors I just used as is. With pieces of the Hack Saw blades I had to epoxy together. Anyway I like the one’s with Chinese scissor blades best. I make all kinds of tools from Chinese scissor blades. Old saw blades make good tools also. As for case hardening compound the non-food grade Potassium Ferro Cyanide is about the cheapest one can find. All that makes it ‘food grade’ is usually it is 99 % pure but this is not required for case hardening. Don’t’ let the cyanide part scare you, the iron makes it okay to use. Now don’t go messing around with Potassium Cyanide without the ‘Ferro or Ferric part’. That could ruin one’s whole day. Take a pill of that with some Coke and it may knock your lights out. No, the Coke would probable not be required there is enough acid in the stomach. One can make their own case hardening compound but the items may be hard to find unless one has a chemical supply store nearby. The Potassium Ferro Cyanide it a common Heath Food item and may be bought at a Health Food Store. Potassium Ferric Cyanide can also be used. This is added to common table salt. On Morton table salt this prompted the picture of the little girl walking in the rain with her umbrella.
Don’t get this case hardening compound confused with the charred bone and charcoal type. By the way, the common nail is made of a good alloy for case hardening and easy to do. To case harden little parts such as gun parts just heat to as hot as one can, put into the compound and then reheat to as hot as one can and quench. Doing this repeated times except the quenching will add a little bit of carbon each time. There will be a point of no return so four or five time may be the end of the practical results. The idea is to get some carbon into the surface of the metal and then quench. Just quench the last time for simplicity.
Oh yes, I made all of my teeth to cut with ‘pulling the tool’ rather than pushing. I feel that I have more positive control this way. One may just use these tools to clean up and recondition old checkering.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#232 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Mon May 27, 2019 6:27 pm

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Here are some of my scopes not mounted on anything.

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#233 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Tue May 28, 2019 10:34 pm

SPRING MAKING - I can’t find the original question on spring making, so I will just add this here for now,

Spring making doesn't have to be too mysterious and like anything it is easy once one knows how. A while back I needed to make a spring out of # 9 wire and I had to buy a 60 foot roll of music wire and made a heavy duty winding tool....But for other small little springs I would do it this way.

For coil springs find an old spring, or new one, with the size of wire that I would need and enough wire to make my spring. I will take a chance that the original maker used an appropriate type of steel. I will take my torch and anneal the wire of the spring to dead soft. I will unroll the spring and this should give me a piece of just plain steel wire. I wouldn’t bother using a lathe but just wind the wire around anything the size of the spring that I would like. I would grind the ends of the spring to whatever design I would like. Now I would proceed in returning this to a ‘spring’. This can be done in a variety of ways...anything to heat the item up to about 700 degrees Fahrenheit...quench it and this will usually give me a usable spring. But actually this ideal temperature varies with the alloy. I would wrap it in aluminum foil just to get a uniform heating. I find that my LEE Bottom Pour lead melting pot can easily bring things up to temperature, within limits of the unit. I bought that pot when they first came out. It sure has surprised me that it has lasted as long as it has.

I would use a thermometer to adjust the temperature. Actually mild steel or high carbon steel can be used but I would think that the original spring was actually made of okay wire...I will get a spring. And flat or leaf springs can be made the same way. That is make a spring the shape desired and heat-treat to around the 700 degrees.
And my melting pot makes excellent charcoal for my Black Powder. I think, I think that most make their Black Powder with too much burnt wood. I think that ever bit of wood ash in one’s BP degrades the quality. My BP does not smoke like the commercial BP.

Oh, and the fellow wondered how long the spring will last. I don’t think that any home-made spring will have a well defined life time. And typically ‘any’ metal spring will start to work-harden the first time it is sprung and it will break whenever it’s time has come.
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ADDENDUM:

MISTAKE – MISTAKE....Forget my part about quenching at about 700 degrees F....no, no, I meant to say ‘temper’, at about 700 degrees after it has been hardened by quenching from the full hot. By tempering I mean rise the temperature of the hardened metal to about this 700 degrees or dark blue and then just let to cool. One may just watch some videos on spring making. But anyway just play around with spring making if one has the desire. I have made a few over the years and most worked....some didn’t.

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#234 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:36 pm

D-DAY ---
I never hear much about the US and allied blunders of D-Day. It is as if, oh well we won so why bring them up. If I will be sounding like a Monday morning General it is because I am sounding like one. My best second hand knowledge of the the D-Day landing, especially at Omaha Beach is from an ex friend here that passed away a couple of years ago. He said that he was 19 at the time. Here are some of his observations and after having read quite a few books on the subject in no particular order .

General Eisenhower was not a Tactical officer, he was a Logistics Officer. He basically delegated Tactical decisions and accepted and passed on the one’s that he liked.
The best that I can tell he okayed the decision to use reservists as the first soldiers to land at Omaha Beach. This was so to use them as ‘cannon fodder’ because these had the least training invested in.

My ex friend was a Keystone Reservist, which was the 28 th Division. He said as a reservist he learned how to wear a uniform and march and then was sent to Fort Louis to learn how to shoot the M1 and 1911 .45, and that was basically it, and he was off to England and in a few days on a boat to Omaha Beach. It was an OJT job, on the job training. In England he was made a ‘Line Man’, His company’s quota for Linemen was four. He said that within a short time after D-DAY the other three had been replaced and it was that way all the way to Germany, through the Battle of the Bulge and the Hurtgen Forest. Now this may sound too simplified but I can see it clearly. His sole job was to unreel communication lines from HQ to the front lines. He said that the German’s sniper’s priority targets were the Officers and Line Men. Now this was not just once in a while but a hard fast rule with him. Crawl, taking every low spot that he could see. One can visualize the Line Man bending over at the waist as he unreeled his line. And he attributed being a lineman for his surviving the whole trip, he didn’t have this Lieutenant or Sergeant standing up with their ‘come on men’ giving them a perfect target for the German sniper. He said one time that an infantry Lt. came up on him in the field and told him to go up that hill and take out a German machine gun nest and then man the gun. Now why would this Lt. do this rather than have one of his men do that? But he thought that he would do it in his own way. He spent an half an hour going around the hill and sneaking up on the them from their back and taking them out and instead of manning the gun because it could be recognized by any that it was a German machine gun so he just broke it and waited until the Lt. and his men went on their way....And then he went on his way. Here is how an inexperienced Lt. can get people killed. And he said that for a lot of the time he didn’t know the name of his own company CO...they were killed so often. A Lieutenant can’t be seen crawling, they have do the stand-up thing and say lets go and get shot. I realize that the CO’s can’t be seen crawling, they say, but can’t there be some system that will give them a better chance?

He said that for the entire trip from the beach to Germany as the German’s retreated they would leave sacrificial snipers and machine gunners along the way. That can be one heck of a thing to look forward to at each morning of your job. His job was a ‘one man job’, alone, just him against them, a bunch of ‘them’. It was up to him to stay alive the best he could.

Back to the blunders – One that stands out to me was when it was decided to bomb the beaches right before the landing so that the men landing would have holes to jump into after landing, but as he said he didn’t see a single hole. I have seen on the war reruns where the bombers dropped their bomb as much as 5 miles inland from the beach. General Eisenhower did not bother to take the time to see to it that this was done properly. So much for his delegation of competent people. Here were the bombers going in from the sea across the beaches instead of going along the beaches and dropping their bombs. Even an Eagle Scout could have figured out that difference....oh well, they were just reservists. And, AND, why didn’t they have a few hundred bombers bomb the five mile coastal areas of the landing zones...and drop their bombs going along the beaches. Just blow those defensive positions all to pieces an hour before the landings.

Can one imagine crawling from Omaha Beach to Germany and making it just by one’s gumption and luck and learning as you go. Yes, yes. I know that it’s easier to be that Monday Morning General. There is a management axiom that says if one’s successes exceed their failures then they are doing okay. But darn, that to me was one major blunder.

On the news the other day I saw 9,000 White Crosses at the Omaha Beach Cemetery – and I know what that means – some don’t.

************************************************************************

A follow up – I saw a National Geographic film on TV that covered the D-DAY landings and it ‘did’ cover the Utah Beach and Omaha Beach landings where the B-26’s ‘did’ successfully bomb the German coastal defenses and where 329 B-24’s were to do the same thing at the Omaha Beach landing except they didn’t go below the cloud cover as the B-26’s did and did not drop a single bomb on target. It didn’t say where they did drop their bombs...possible in the channel because they couldn’t take them back home with them. They were thinking right but couldn’t follow through. I liked the part about the timing of the Utah Beach bombing...Six minutes after the bombing the troops started landing - win some lose some.

I realize that wrong facts can get passed on and 329 B-24’s sounds like it may be one of those. That to me seems like a lot of overkill for 5 miles of beach, but maybe some one counted on a good lose of the B-24’s which probable would have been true. But, BUT, If that part was true, the B-24 Flight leader didn’t even take a chance and go under the cloud cover like the B-26’s did. He knew darn well that the B-26’s were doing that 20 miles away. But he wouldn’t take his chances like the B-26 guys did and just took that way out instead of completing his mission. That to me was a major blunder and if all that was true, then I would say that he should have been fired, and maybe he was. Things like that are hard to dig up amongst all of the other stuff.
A blunder is a blunder, is a blunder. I was in the 6th grade at the time and it seemed like a daily thing that some other student had to say his brother or dad had been killed. 2400 of the those white crosses at the Omaha Beach Cemetery are for that blunder.

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#235 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:46 pm

BUM DOPE -

This is just in case if one has some spare time to think about all of the untruths, misinformation and lies that we are subjected to every day. For example, the news Medea has been so dumbed down that they don’t know any better, and they don’t care...when they will say such things as ‘a criminal suspect is being held on a bond’. We all should know that a ‘bond’ is an instrument of ‘release’, not for being ‘held’. A magistrate sets bail for a criminal suspect to be released until trial so as to allow them to be free, if they qualify, and will forfeit this bail or bond if they fail to show for their hearing or trial. When I was kid is seemed that it was general knowledge that a criminal suspect was never ‘held’ on bail or bond, but could be released on bail or a bond. But some where along the way it was decided, probable by some one of the media that didn’t know any better and the general public that didn’t know any better just accepted this. And to this day we will hear on the news that so and so is being ‘held on bond’ – what nonsense.

Now most of things like this will not destroy one’s life but will just sound dumb.

Most of us have or heard of the cheap night lights and alarms that are called ‘Motion Detectors’ Do most of us believe this that they detect ‘motion’? I think so. But they don’t detect one bit of motion...at least not by a normal object. If one doesn’t believe me just cause some motion of something in front of one and see if motion is detected, something that is inanimate. Fifty years ago I built a motion detector, a real motion detector. It is around here some where. It was a Heath Kit.

If one looks at a cloud in the sky, I’ll bet 9 out of 10 will say that they are of water vapor. If one takes a pint fruit jar and fills it half full of water with a lid on it, and lets it set for a while the space above the water will be completely saturated with water vapor, as much as it will hold at it’s temperature and pressure. What color does this water vapor appear? That’s right, colorless. But clouds are not colorless, so what are the clouds made of?

WATER – most will hear that water is a good conductor of electricity – do most believe this, I think so...why, just because they hear it so often. Fact is water is a very, very very poor conductor of electricity. If one had a sample of pure water it would be a ‘perfect’ insulator to electricity. But as far as I have heard, to date there is no way to created a sample of pure water.

And on and on....Just like the old adage, if a lie is repeated often enough, it can become the truth, or at least thought of as a truth.

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#236 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:18 am

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... &eim=1,2,6

Okay, my ex-friend here is in this picture...he is in the third row back on the right...in the second row there are two men on the right...he is in the third row at a 45 degree angle to the upper left of the second one from the right . He was in and out of the 28 th division but in the 29 th division at the second wave of the beach landing. This picture was of the first men that marched in for the liberation of Paris. He was back in the 28 th division for this picture. They were losing so many men that he was moved about and even under Patton for some of the time.

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#237 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:48 pm

RAMBLING # ?

Just some of the wild life around here...There is a lot of out-of-state hunting activity here. The last I heard, the state sells these elk for 400 or over for an out-of-state license. It’s common for a 4 or 5 point bull elk to have his little herd of of cows. But there are a certain type of hunter that wants the older elk with the big rack that has been unable to fend off the younger, stronger bull elk. These are out in the mountains wondering around by them selves and this is more like real hunting and there are outfitters that will fit anyone’s budget of 2 to 3 thousand typically, but if one wants to go it themselves, that is okay. But there are usually a couple that get lost every year...and some don’t come back out.

As for other wild life here, there are deer, bear, antelope (pronghorn) moose, mountain lion, bob cat, coyote, wolves...a fellow here told the game people here that a wolf was killing his sheep and they said it was probable a pack of wild dogs and wouldn’t reimburse him for that loss. He shot the wolf and then showed them...yep, you are right, that will be a thousand dollar fine. I saw a wolf go by here one day, or at least it looked like what I would think a wolf would look like.

There are lots of year-around geese here and they allow goose hunting in town if done with regular bow or cross bow, in season. They are a nuisance at the golf course but...it is against federal law to harass them and chase them away.

The only thing that I hunt or shoot around here are Blue Grouse, Coyotes and Prairie dogs. The place is saturated with mountain lions....funny, but this means that there are very few. The mountain lion apparently have a very strict territory code. They each have a certain area that each have and control. It is said that some have as much as 100 square miles to call their own. We have lived here 24 years and I have never seen one. They can be heard quite often in the evening with their blood curdling scream. Apparently just their way of a warning to stay out of their area.

We live on a dead-end road off of a dead-end forest service road. One or two strange vehicles a week going by are typical.
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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#238 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:56 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_W ... lying_aces

I just came across this list of aerial aces and of course I don’t know the validity of it but, it sure says a lot. To me it indicates that the German air aces that accrued records like this did it because of luck or skill. I realize that the German philosophy was to let the pilots that were good keep right on doing this job as long as they could where the US idea was to bring back the higher aces to the states and teach other pilots in air to air combat skills. But even though that being said, how could all of those German pilots get to 100 to 0, 200 to 0 and 300 to 0 aerial kills without being killed way before this? I will say that ‘luck’ could absolutely, unequivocally be ruled out as for the reason. So that leaves skill. I would think that there was a whole bunch of ‘skill’ involved. Now why did the US, or the other allied counties allow their pilots to go up against these German pilots with ‘apparently’ so ill trained pilots. I realize that our side did destroy the German Air Force due to out-numbering them, and the US pilots were well enough trained, but due to the basic ground rules that our pilots had to adhere to and the Germans pilots didn’t, this allowed that some, a lot, of German pilots just kept right on scoring kills without being hit themselves. And I think that I have the reason why. Years ago I read an article about Hartmann, the one with 352 kills. The article as it was said, Hartmann’s air craft mechanic told him to attach an enemy aircraft only if he had three advantages, altitude, speed and surprise, and Hartmann did just this and started to rack up the kills. And Adolf Hitler had him sent to Berlin so Hitler could congratulate him personally. And Hitler ask him if he could do anything for him and he said yes, Let me go my own way when it comes to attacking enemy aircraft. He told Hitler that he had learned that the three advantage thing had kept him alive and Hitler bought it. He had to be alone and not be with a formation to be a surprise, etc. He could get his altitude more quickly by himself. And when he dived on an enemy plane, he had the speed advantage. If he made the kill, okay, if not he had the speed to keep on going and get the heck out of there and outrun anyone. He had lost the surprise and altitude advantage and he didn’t have to stick around and mix it up with the fighter escorts or enemy fighter formations and take the chance of getting shot down. Anyway he knew that the general way the US ran it’s fighter escorts is that they shouldn’t pursue him and stick with the bombers. He could go around and keep doing this. Now of course all of his situations were not the best but he had this permission to choose his own fighting technique. With the US attitude toward aerial combat this was a no-no. Therefore looking at this list of the German kills I would say that this attitude may have been used by more than just him. No fighter pilot can just have this much luck if they mix it up an enemy fighter. I know enough about flying to understand the merits of this. And I know that the advantage we had was all of these factories here in the states with no bombings to interrupt their cranking out the planes as we did. I had a coworker at Douglas Air Craft that told me that he worked at the Long Beach, California Douglas plant at the time and they were making 10 C-47’s and 3 B-17’s per day, and these factories were all over the US. And I remember his story about there were no factory test flights of the planes. There were Army flight crews that just jumped in after they were gassed up and took off and if they found nothing wrong or too bad with the plane they just flew it off to their assigned field.

It were things like this that allowed these high scoring German aces to keep shooting them down and still lose the war, and of course of all the blunders that Hitler made. What a list, huh?

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#239 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:20 am

F-104
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=f- ... ORM=VDRVRV

Here is my story of the F-104....

My association with it began in 1960 when I went to work for Litton industries in LA. They were making the Inertial Guidance Systems for it along with similar systems for some Grumman planes. I had worked my whole life on nothing but aviation electronics since I joined the Air Force at 18 and until I retired on 2 Jan 1995. In 1963 Litton said we would like me to go to the Lockheed plant at Palmdale, California and work with the Lockheed F-104 program where they were making 99 more F-104’s just for the German Air Force for training here in the US. I had just completed exactly 3 years of engineering schooling with the GI bill and was just getting ready to transfer to UCLA for my last year, and really didn’t want go...but they give me a title of engineer and just doubled my salary. I went with the idea of completing that later. The 99 planes were finished and I went with them to the German pilot training program at Luke AFB, Arizona.

As for the Widow Maker moniker, it was because the first F-104’s had a ‘downward’ ejection seat. And the first planes had engine problems with failure on take offs and the pilots could not get the planes turned up side quick enough and they were driven into the ground too often when they tried to eject. They used this type of seat ejection because of the high tail assemble. Okay, this was cured with a powered upward ejection system with other means. Rockets and 40 mm shells filled with powder. And this lead to the German Air Force high loss rate, for the pilots. Bad stories went around amongst them with broken backs due to the hard ejections. Out of their original thousand planes that they had purchased, they quickly lost about 100 or so due to insufficient training and bad weather conditions. They landed fast and this gave them less time to react in the bad weather. So....they made a deal with the USAF to send over here pilots to be trained by our F-104 instructor pilots at various prices for training. At the time I was there at Luke, it was 175 thousand per pilot in their 99 planes. And there were a few of those lost...all with pilots. The student pilots were still afraid to eject. One of their pilots was a descendant of the Red Barren. I asked to leave there in the spring of 66 and went to work with Grumman Navy A6’s and C2E’s in the western Pacific in carrier support and worked with and for the Navy until I retired in 1995. I know that you could have gotten along just fine without all of this information and it is a good thing that there is this trivia section.

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Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON ACCURACY & OTHERS

#240 Post by OLDGUNNER1 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:23 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDNEJAK3lww

More F-104 story....This was filmed at Luke AFB in 1968 it says. I have never seen it before. I left there in 1966. This youtube is lengthy but it gives a pretty good idea of the activity of the F-104 program that I was working with. I was really impressed with the aerial accuracy with their 20 mm Canons with mechanical optical sights. An aerial target can be seen at about 30 minutes into the video. The way it worked was the target tow plane would be towing the target which was about 15 feet long, from a 1200 yard tow cable going from 300 to 400 knots. The student would be going the same speed in the opposite direction at a distance of 1200 yards from the tow plane. The student would turn the 90 degrees on to the target and fire his 100 rounds at the target. Each plane had different colored bullets so the hits could be identified on the target later. Can one imagine hitting that small of a target going at that speed in front of you..well they did. Yes the work was interesting but I wanted to move on to newer things.

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