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M4 sherman In WWII

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72 usmc
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M4 sherman In WWII

#1 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:46 pm

Ronson's or the British Tommycooker

read: Death Traps: The Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II by Benton Y. Cooper (2003)
Synopsis
"Cooper saw more of the war than most junior officers, and he writes about it better than almost anyone. . . . His stories are vivid, enlightening, full of lifeand of pain, sorrow, horror, and triumph." STEPHEN E. AMBROSE From his Foreword "In a down-to-earth style, Death Traps tells the compelling story of one man's assignment to the famous 3rd Armored Division that spearheaded the American advance from Normandy into Germany. Cooper served as an ordnance officer with the forward elements and was responsible for coordinating the recovery and repair of damaged American tanks. This was a dangerous job that often required him to travel alone through enemy territory, and the author recalls his service with pride, downplaying his role in the vast effort that kept the American forces well equipped and supplied. . . . [Readers] will be left with an indelible impression of the importance of the support troops and how dependent combat forces were on them." Library Journal "[ DEATH TRAPS ] FILLS A CRITICAL GAP IN WW2 LITERATURE. . . . IT'S A TRULY UNIQUE AND VALUABLE WORK." G.I. Journal
A memoir by a World War II ordinance officer offers a behind-the-scenes account of his ordnance inspections during the European campaign, detailing his experiences on the front line and his job coordinating the recovery and repair of damaged American tanks. Reprint.
Stephen Ambrose said Cooper "saw more of the war than most. . . and he writes about it better than almost anyone." Publishers Weekly called it "Without a doubt, this is one of the finest WWII memoirs ever written." Maintenance seems an unlikely place to encounter in danger. When author Belton Cooper found himself assigned to the hard-charging 3d Armored Division, he discovered that recovering the division's broken-down, battle damaged, and even destroyed tanks often took him and his team of technical experts to the front lines, and even beyond. So critical was the need for replacement combat-ready tanks that Cooper and his recovery team had to go to extreme lengths to pick up the pieces from the battlefield, even if the battle was not yet over. Particularly notable is his criticism of the Sherman tank and of General Patton.
Screen Shot 2019-02-07 at 11.47.41 AM.png
Great History videos kind of long:
13 min https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns6l7sCoWX4

25 min https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj0AzL95Weg

2 short oral histories https://archives.library.illinois.edu/b ... tanks-ww2/
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: M4 sherman In WWII

#2 Post by Rapidrob » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:11 pm

My Dad joined the Army in 1934. He was in the Horse Calvary and switched over to Tanks soon after the army disbanded the hose Calvary as a fighting force.
He started in pre-war tanks that were the predecessors of the Stuart Tank, and then the Sherman tank at Normandy. He stayed in Armor for all 5 years of WWII from North Africa to Germany. When he retired in 1959 after 25 years of active service.
Right after WWII he made CWO3 and was given a model of a Sherman tank that is supposed to be made from steel of a Sherman tank. It is very heavy and my Dad used it as a paper weight for many years while on active service.
I now have it and it too holds down-the-fort on my desk.
On his Horse " Chowhound "
dad4.jpg
On parade in 1936 at Ft. Mead,Maryland
dad5.jpg
Dad driving this prototype tank
dad6.jpg
The model Sherman Tank given to my Dad after WWII ended.
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Re: M4 sherman In WWII

#3 Post by DaleH » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:07 pm

And WHO lives better than you? I am already 'envious' of your range ... and now you post that info?

I thank your Dad for his service. You come from indeed good stock!

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Re: M4 sherman In WWII

#4 Post by 72 usmc » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:58 pm

To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: M4 sherman In WWII

#5 Post by DaleH » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:18 pm

FWIW I just viewed a VERY interesting video by Nicholas “The Chieftain” Moran who debunks and counters MOST of the arguments made against the Sherman tank.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bNjp_4jY8pY

He uses all US Board of Ordinance quotes and official documents as well as official records from Britain and Germany.

Notable Info:
* In 4 out of 5 tank on tank engagements, it is the tank that fires 1st that wins.

* The Germans had the advantage in a farther reaching gun AND lower silouette ... which allowed them to typically fire first.

* There are only 3 or 4 recorded tank-on-tank battles between the Sherman and Tiger1 tanks.

* The “takes 4-5 Shermans to kill a Panther/Tiger” metric often quoted is the number of tanks of each type fielded and not a direct correlation of how many Shermans it took to knock out a German heavy tank.

* In tank battles, like the scene in Fury where the LAST tank in the platoon was shot, the Germans would have shot any Firefly or 76mm gunned Sherman 1st, then the LEAD tank, then the LAST column tank.

* The frontal armor of the Sherman was effectively 3.6” due to the slope of the armor, whereas it was 4” to 4.3” for the Tiger1.

* At Kursk, 80+ of the 200 then new Panthers sent there were out of commission within the 1st few days due to mechanical failure, allegedly fielded too fast and loaded w/ build errors.

* General Patton didn’t stop the M26 Pershing from being deployed overseas, it was the Board of Ordinance, as it had too many problems that weren’t addressed ... where the US wanted to avoid a ‘Panther introduction’ abysmal failure repeat.

* One of the BIGGEST reasons the US decided to field a medium tank over a heavy tank is the cost, materials, trains, flatbeds & ships needed to ship them from US Mfg plants over to Europe, where they could ship 2 Shermans in the space & weight of one Pershing.

* In WW2, the Brits never called the Shermans ‘Ronsons - Lights 1st time everytime’ as that advertising campaign didn’t start unti into the 1950s. Plus any US GI that smoked carried ‘Zippo’ lighters.

* While Shermans did ‘burn’, they were THE MOST SURVIVABLE tank fielded in WW2.

* The Sherman was the fastest tank to exit ... look for his “OMG my tank is on fire” video, a must watch!

* The Shermans also had the highest readiness #s of any tank fielded.

Look this video and others by him up, the info was certainly eye-opening to me!

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Re: M4 sherman In WWII

#6 Post by 72 usmc » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:46 pm

The Ronson was American made and sort of a fancy lighter popular in England in the 1930s due to its Art Deco styling. Its first lighter was made in the teens. WW II AD
Screen Shot 2019-03-15 at 10.08.38 PM.png
I'd say both were used-the Zippo less expensive.
The Zippo was a more US utilitarian, fool proof lighter. Popular with US GIs in WW II and definitely the lighter of choice in Vietnam.
An interesting link: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=217773
A unit marked Vietnam Zippo is a nice find at any antique store.
picture & info WW II zippos:

http://lightergallery.com/world-war-ii-zippos
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Re: M4 sherman In WWII

#7 Post by DaleH » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:42 am

Watched another episode last night about a couple US M26 Pershing heavy tanks that did make it to Europe in early ‘45 as the US Army was heading deeper into Germany. It had a 90mm cannon and one tank knocked out 3 Tiger 1s. Other M26s in that same tank company all had severe mechanical problems, as that design was plagued with in its introduction.

Makes it look like ... that when it worked, it worked well! Just came about too late to really have any larger impact.

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Re: M4 sherman In WWII

#8 Post by slowbob2 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:21 am

Cooper was a 20 year old LT who only thought he knew more than generals and ordinance officers . There was a reason he never got promoted . Also he was not at the front fighting with tanks , he only saw knocked out tanks . 60 % which were back in service within a week . The Sherman was unrepairable if it burned , since in most post D-day battles the German's LOST the field of battle , they kept shooting a Sherman until it burned so they would not have to face it again . The Sherman had many upgrades and different models , being up gunned and armored . Most Shermans were as good or better than the MK-IV which they faced the most . Shermans were always at a disadvantage as they were on the attack through the unknown into known range ambushes , the first shot . Even a Tiger would be in trouble there . Cooper's book is a good account of a confused young LT , not even close on what the Sherman was capable of .

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