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AMMUNITION ACCURACY

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OLDGUNNER
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#16 Post by OLDGUNNER » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:47 pm

DaleH wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:38 pm
Try the Optimal Charge Weight method devised by Dan Newberry ... and you’ll get a more accurate load in less shots! His method identifies the ideal node for that rifle, powder and load. Most, if not all, F Class shooters use it or some similar variation thereof, like the older Audette ‘ladder’ method (which is not as good IMHO).

Even better, I’ve seen ideal OCW loads for a specific powdah start out fantastic, from the FIRST test loading!

Example - Both of Dan’s recommended loadings for 69-grn 5.56 and 168-grn 308, over Varget powdah, shoot 1/2-MOA out of my precision rifles in those calibers ... BEFORE any further increment testing! If you’re a serious shooter, the OCW Method is well worth the read!

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com
**********************************************************************
I will sure look into this - I just have never come across it...thank you much.
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#17 Post by OLDGUNNER » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:05 pm

VMASCIOP2000 wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:18 pm
Great information and easy to follow. I am confused however regarding #3. polish the bore. Are we talking about a paste product to hasten land and groove break-in? That last sentence has me totally lost.

Let’s see # 3...yes, this is mainly what I am saying, and this is just one of the things that shooters have some strong convictions about. Everyone has their opinions and you can’t take those away from them. I have mine and I am always listening to others. I will say this:
1. I have talked to a dozen or more barrel makers....I think all of the major custom makers. I have visited one, I forget the name. He was so nice that he showed me everything. Some will tell me everything that I would like to know....others think that everything they do is so proprietary and they don’t care if I would buy a barrel from them or not. In my opinion, custom barrel making is mainly a bunch of ‘hooey’. But, if one pays 400 dollars or more for a barrel then he will do his best to make it shoot good, and I understand this...you pays your money, you takes your choice. One time I spoke to an owner and he wouldn’t tell me much of anything. I called back a while later and talked nice to the lady and she connected me to the shop foreman. He told me what I would be buying and how he made it. Now I just heard his story, full truth or not, but it sounded okay to me. Like it took him an hour to make the barrel and they spent 10 to 15 minutes on lapping and polishing the bore, and the procedure. I think that he said that they liked to end up with a 1000 grit finish – others vary from 500 to 800 grit. I just like the 500 to 800 idea.
2. I talked to one owner that said he was working on a military contract at the time and yes, the contract called for a 320 grit final lapping. As far as I know, this is very common for commercial and military barrels...for reason as I said.
3. A few years ago I bought one pound cans of ‘Green Cover’ polishing compound, maybe 6 from 180 to 1200 grit for like 16 to 18 dollars a can. I just looked the other day and they are now 40 $ a can – I wouldn’t do that again. First of all I talked to a guy at the factory in Canada that made the stuff and all he could say is that the grit size was ‘an average’ size. That was okay because I could measure the grit size.
4. As far as I know, the Laboratory grade of a polishing compound mainly means, ‘It contains grit no ‘larger than’ a certain size which makes sense to me.
5. Oh yes, one of those expensive barrel maker shop guys told me that they used regular 180 grit compound and just lapped it until the polish wore down to around 800 grit and that was it for their lapping.
6. I think that I can do a better job with some things than a so-called professional shop because I can take all the time that I may need, where they can’t do this.
7. I have seen where some will change their barrels after say 150 shots and then I can read articles where their barrel testing didn’t show any decrease in accuracy until after say 9000 rounds. ?????
You are asking, I think what I mean about lapping and polishing my barrels. I understand that all barrels are not created equal, fact is I say that no two barrels are ever created equal...it is just physically impossible. These barrels are made by any number of different standards. I just think that all barrels will do a better job if a little care is given to possible the most important thing with them, the bore finish. I think that this is what all of the concern with the ‘barrel breaking in’ is all about. I don’t think that any certain strep-by step system fits all barrels. I can look at a bore and see what it looks like, and then I can decide what I may be able to do to make it better, for me. I have polishing compounds up to as fine as 50,000 mesh.
If you may have any more questions on my bore finishes, I will be glad to talk some more.

Now to the ‘last sentence’, are you talking about the leaded bores of the Model 44’s? If so I’ll try to find the reference. Yes, it sure sounded strange to me also.
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#18 Post by OLDGUNNER » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:49 pm

DaleH wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:38 pm
Try the Optimal Charge Weight method devised by Dan Newberry ... and you’ll get a more accurate load in less shots! His method identifies the ideal node for that rifle, powder and load. Most, if not all, F Class shooters use it or some similar variation thereof, like the older Audette ‘ladder’ method (which is not as good IMHO).

Even better, I’ve seen ideal OCW loads for a specific powdah start out fantastic, from the FIRST test loading!

Example - Both of Dan’s recommended loadings for 69-grn 5.56 and 168-grn 308, over Varget powdah, shoot 1/2-MOA out of my precision rifles in those calibers ... BEFORE any further increment testing! If you’re a serious shooter, the OCW Method is well worth the read!

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com
********************************************************************************************
WOW - double WOW....I read Dan Newberry's OCW system and OKKKKKKAY, I can see why his statement in his last or so paragraph says that for a fee of what, 40 or 45 dollars he will lead you through his system. As he says, yes, one can go astray if one doesn't pay really good attention. When he is comparing his system to the Ladder system, he is saying things about the Ladder system that I wouldn't do. He mentions the original LEE Loader. I bought one of those and at the time thought they were really slick - that was when old man Lee believed in good quality - still have that too. He mentions the 'Scatter Nodes', and that part I can agree with. I always just thought of those as bad nodes between the good nodes. When I first started reloading at 15 about 1949 I didn't know what a reloading manual was, never saw a bullet mold, the only powder I had was taken from my dad's shotgun shells. By the way I made the simplest bullet mold and still today they would make fine cast custom bullets....as you say, IMHO. LEE Bullet Molds usually make out-of-round bullets, my molds always made 'round bullets'. And I have to spend at least an hour or two reworking the LEE Molds.

Thank you, glad you had good luck with the 'OCW'
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#19 Post by VMASCIOP2000 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:01 pm

Yes that clears up the grit information perfectly. I am reading a sentence between .3 and .4 about rifle weight that looks unconnected to either of those statements. Not super important just thought I'd bring it up.
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#20 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:48 am

VMASCIOP2000 wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:18 pm
Great information and easy to follow. I am confused however regarding #3. polish the bore. Are we talking about a paste product to hasten land and groove break-in? That last sentence has me totally lost.
************************************************************************
Okay, I assume you are talking about the leaded bores of the Model 44's. It was a few years ago that I read about this for a batch of the 44's. I looked back and all I saw was where someone was looking at some of these at a CMP store and they appeared to have no riflings. There are just pages and pages of web information on these 44's, too much for me to read.
So let me suggest something, since I can't lead you to some information at this time....There is a Mr. Havlin of 'HAVLIN SALES AND SERVICE' in Festus, MO that is heavy into these Model 44's. I have spoken to him and his wife on the phone before and they are very nice about sales and problems with these rifles. I suggest that you call them and let them tell you about this. This way you will have the information first hand. I bought 3 aluminum trigger guards and 3 ammunition magazines clips from them. I saw their phone number listed as, 636-937-6401...try this, okay. I have sent you one or two 'Private Messages' and maybe you haven't seen the indicating 'flashing lights' to this effect.
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#21 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:21 pm

Rapidrob wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:09 am
I use the Foster Flash Hole De-burring Tool. Not for all loads,just anything that needs to be more than issue accurate.
**************************http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/downlo ... ew&id=4112****************************************************************************
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/downlo ... ew&id=4111
Here is an other example of my DIY, in shooting glasses. The fancy ones can be 200 +....My version, to me just as good, $3 maybe and a felt tip pen. I can adjust the pin-hole, I think just as easy . Would I be ashamed to show up at a competitive shoot with these - not one darn bit. Have I shot in competitive shoots - yes. I guess one of my most memorable ones was a Winchester sponsored World Open, in the summer of 1975 in Yokosuka, Japan. It was called, "Winchester World Open". I would guess that Winchester would have the results in their archives some where. I can honestly say that I tied for first place in my class...As I recall this was the only tie, so it should be easier to find.
Let me add, for general shooting I think that the regular yellow shooting glasses are just great - no DIY here.
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#22 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:10 am

VMASCIOP2000 wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:01 pm
Yes that clears up the grit information perfectly. I am reading a sentence between .3 and .4 about rifle weight that looks unconnected to either of those statements. Not super important just thought I'd bring it up.

************************************************************************************************
Well, I think that can be ‘super’ important’. I just didn’t want to get into that at the time. Example, I have in front of me right now a box of 50, Nosler .30 cal 180, grain Molly coated bullets that I ordered from Nosler. After I ordered them I got a call from a Nosler salesman and he said that he didn’t want to send them to me until he knew that I knew what I was doing. He had my best interest at heart. Believe it or not, he was actually trying to possible save my life...possible save me from killing myself. He just wanted to make sure that I would not try to obtain the same velocity that I was getting with my regular non-molly bullets in case I was loading to 'max loads'. If one starts out with a say a 500 grit lapped bore they will not usually get into trouble. But...but, If for example I was loading at ‘maximum’ with regular non-molly bullets, and getting a certain velocity....I should ‘NOT’ try to load with these Molly coated bullets where I would ‘have to’ use more powder to obtain my original velocity – I couldn’t obtain this velocity unless I may happen to use an over-pressuring loading and maybe blow the bolt back into my face. The very same effect can happen if one polishes the bore of his gun too smooth “AND” tries to obtain the same velocity as before.
That is why the regular commercial and military barrel makers have arrived at an optimum bore surface with the 320 grit, for the most velocity from the the least amount of powder with the minimum amount of support of the pressure from the firing of the cartridge. The least amount of support means the least amount of steel being used in the receiver and barrel – thusly saving weight to be carried around. A 10 or 12 pound bench-rest rifle is not meant to be carried around all day.
I’ll add a thing that happened to me one time...I was using Green Dot powder in reloading my .28 gauge shot shells, and for some dumb reason I took a little clear plastic tube and estimated an extra 10 % by volume of powder and added to one shell and took it out side and fired it. It blew at least a half dozen of little parts out of the receiver.
If after reading the above it is not clear, I will try something else, okay. Maybe read it a couple of more times.

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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#23 Post by VMASCIOP2000 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:40 pm

That totally makes sense now. Great thought ,to keep the variables influencing pressure hikes in mind. Personally I would never load to max, in any situation. Do you think that theoretically one could polish a bore to a point where standard factory loads could be dangerous?
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#24 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:17 pm

OH NO....I DON'T MEAN TO IMPLY THAT AT ALL. But if one polishes a bore to a super mirror like finish, the velocity would be very low...because the the pressure would be very low. The smooth bore would not offer enough resistance to the bullet in the bore to allow enough pressure to build up to get any usable velocity. The 320 grit finish of the bore will offer a certain amount of resistance to a properly sized bullet for the bore. The more smooth the bore, the 'less' pressure will be built up behind the bullet, with all other things being equal. The rougher the bore, the 'more' pressure will be built up behind the bullet, again with all other things being equal. So you can see with all things being equal, the smoother the bore, the less pressure can be built up behind the bullet - not enough pressure to cause any problem....BUT, if the bore is to become too rough, this will result in more pressure behind the bullet and if the bore is say too rusty (rough), this can be cause for the barrel to blow up. Think of it as using the same powder charge in that super smooth bore and then using the same powder charge in a very rough as in (rusty) bore. Which one would you think would have a better chance of blowing up? The one with the rusty bore of course. Just think of the old stories about 'that old rusty gun blowing up'. It is because of the rusty bore in 'that old rusty gun'. Can you see where there should be some ideal bore smoothness for certain guns? It should be somewhere between that super smooth and super rough bore...it just so happens that through trial and error some particular smoothness has been worked out for guns of a given purpose. I think that in general, 320 grit has just been accepted to be the ideal for rifles that are to be normally carried for longer times, such as Military and hunting types. Because...because, with this grit size it has been found to offer a lighter rifle. Now with the more specialized rifles such as target and bench-rest types, the weight is not as important and here is where the more smoother bores may come into use and often do. Now with the military a 'target rifle' as used as a sniper rifle still has to be carried around, so weight is still a factor...to what extent, I don't know. There is enough of the specialized 'shootum' military types on the web that should be able to add to this.

But back to the original problem, with all other things being equal, the smoother the bore, the more metal it will take to contain the pressure, resulting in more weight. But I have to point out here, it should follow that as the bore is made more rough than with the 320 grit, it would also require a more heavy weight, but this should be apparent as with the rifle with the rusty bore. The more rusty the bore, it would just be a mater of making the barrel more heavy to be safe.

Visualize a half a sheet of regular typewriter paper, cut length wise 'to save weight', role it up into a tube, tape it with some scotch tape, put a firecracker into one end with a little hole for the fuse to stick out, twist and tape that end shut. Drop a glass marble down onto the firecracker - lay everything flat...light the fuse...what do you think might happen...I would guess that the cracker end would blow off and the marble may slowly role down the remaining paper role. Resulting in everything that I have said...if we are lucky. :)

There must be some gunsmiths here that can add more to this, one way or the other. Darn, I am having a hard time getting use to this format.

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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#25 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:51 pm

As I said...... Darn, I am having a hard time getting use to this format.

I have seen an 'edit box' before but I can't find one now.

I wanted to change something that I wrote..."There must be some gunsmiths here..."

to...."There must be some gunsmiths here or anyone else that may add more to this, one way or another. I am always in a learning mode. I say that no one knows anything for sure, and I put myself first on that list.
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#26 Post by Smokey » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:27 am

Another thing I learned, working with a French Lebel.
You can often help accuracy by getting all the violence and drama done in the first part of the barrel, so the bullet is pushed the rest of the way with lower pressure.
I started out loading the Lebel with IMR4350 and a 208gr bullet. At 25 yards it was doing a one foot pattern.
I then went to Ramshot TAC with the same bullet and immediately got decent accuracy.
While this is an extreme example, it makes the point that the faster burning rifle propellants, assuming not too much empty volume, might shoot better.
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#27 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:08 pm

Yes Smokey – Again I agree....and I think that this is one feature of normal good firearm design. Basically let all of that turmoil settle down before the bullet exits the muzzle – that last inch or two of the barrel really has a lot to do with what that bullet is going to do...as far as the rifle itself is concerned. I have read, and I have no reason not to believe, for example that the typical .22 target ammunition is designed to have all, or most of its, powder burnt by the time it is 18 inches down the barrel. This 18 inch figure is of course just a rough estimate. This allows for the bullet to be coasting so-to-speak for that last important few inches of ride down the barrel. This way there isn’t any push on the bullet right after it leaves the barrel to ‘blow’ it off course. The ‘regular’ .22 ammo has similar compromise designs because it is designed to be used in rifle barrels as well as short barreled hand guns....different reasons. One time I shot a neighbor’s new High Standard .22 Short Olympic model with Remington Target Pistol ammunition and it was amazing how well it shot. It has the two barrel ports with the movable weights on the barrel for fine tuning. They now go for over a thousand, but one can make their own using the same principle as a DIY project from most any regular pistol – any caliber.
So I say as you have found out, for better accuracy a general rule can be to not let any flash be seen from the muzzle in the dark. I will assume that this is one of the main reasons that most regular military arms and Weatherby Magnums are not known for their accuracies – different designs for different reasons. And in IMHO, just to extend this accuracy idea, the barrels don’t need to be straight. Fact is none of them are – the manufacture will like to make them reasonable straight just because it sounds better and it is expected. I realize that this violates my rule of not saying ‘always or never’. Now before you get your dander up, think about it...it is ‘theoretically and PRACTICALLY’... IMPOSSIBLE to make any barrel perfectly straight. There has to be a plus or minus tolerance in anything made by man. And it is that last couple of inches of that barrel that will determine in just which direction that bullet will be sent. Now that barrel may be whipped around some by the popular harmonic dispersion and probable will be – different story. But to just make a point, this is why a 12 or 14 pound target barrel can typically be made to shoot better because that barrel is stronger at the muzzle and after that bullet has gone down a crooked bore, it will be better forced to straighten up and fly right.
I have used up too much bandwidth on my frivolousness, sorry.

But yes, I should agree that it would be entirely expected to be able to increase the accuracy of a military arm, or any for that matter, by making sure that all of the powder has been burnt by the time that it has exited the barrel....velocity no, but accuracy yes.
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#28 Post by OLDGUNNER » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:27 pm

AND....
Since you brought it up...The .338 Lapua is known for its long range sniping, If I could find time I wouldn’t mind playing with one, starting out with this one criteria - with a 26 or 28 inch barrel and pick out a powder where I could fill a case and have it burn out without seeing any muzzle flash after dark, and then go from there and work around that. I know that it will do the pie plate thing at a 1000 yards now, but I would like to see if I could use a smaller pie plate. And don’t get me wrong, I realize that this could not be something that I could seriously consider or find time to fit into my long-tooth years. But I may find time just to work on this no-flash idea with something. I saw a .338 bullet drop chart with a thousand yards ‘zero’ point – I thought that was funny. That will really reach out and touch somebody.
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Re: AMMUNITION ACCURACY

#29 Post by Smokey » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:34 pm

Another reason a heavier (thicker) barrel can shoot better is, it's stiffer. I just doesn't whip around as much as a lighter, thinner barrel.
Again, working with the Lebel, I got it to shoot even better by using the fore-end to stiffen up the barrel.
The stock has shrunk over the years and the fore-end was a little loose. I built up the barrel channel to a fairly tight fit with the barrel bands.
The grouping, already much improved by using a faster propellant, now was what I would say was typical for rifles of the time, good, with 3-inch or less groups at 100 yards. I have also found this with other rifles.
For the finest accuracy with a carefully tuned handload, free-floating may still be the best.
Most folks can't shoot that well once they pick the rifle up and use it "in the field"
For practical accuracy, shooting "good enough" with whatever ammo you come across, a barrel clamped tightly to the stock seems to work better.
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