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RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

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72 usmc
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RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#1 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:08 pm

RIFLE PICTORIAL BORE CONDITION GUIDE

INTRODUCTION

The other day I was wanting to search out on the web some photo views of what the typical, average condition, Mauser bore might look like. I wanted some condition views of rifling that ranged from like new to sewer pipe rifling. However, most of the photos of milsurp bores seem to be gone from the archived or old forum posts. Most are also missing on a general search like “bore condition.” There does not seem to be a general guide with informative photos that provides a variety of bore conditions.
See: https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... light=bore

In addition, there appears to be a wide range in the definition/meanings/usage of barrel terms such as sewer pipe, minty, dark, pitted, dinged, strong, bright, polished, frosted, rounded, sharp, bulged, counterbored, mirror like, rusted and so many other terms used. Now, people will aways differ on how to inspect and judge a bore. So this is not a thesis on how to judge a bore. You can judge a bore as you see fit. As a general rule, I look for a cleaned rifle bore so I can see its condition with a bore light, not one that is left filthy, with the seller telling me it will clean up fine.

When inspecting a rifle’s bore, I first look for a clean bore that is somewhat bright (like a clean metal surface, but not overly polished & so shiny that I can not see rifling). On an old milsurp I look for the rifling that appears distinct —with somewhat sharp edges. In fact, I generally do not see such a described, like new barrel, condition on old military surplus rifles; hence, I wanted some pictures of what I should expect to see on an average condition military rifle. Most of the milsurps I find seem to have darker bores showing different stages of rounding to the sharp edges of the rifling. I wanted to find some views of the different kinds of rifling observed in WW I & WW II weapons. No guide seems to exist. The lack of information spurred me to research the few available references and glean photos from what I could find in an effort to add some collector data about military surplus rifle bores.

After an inspection of a rifle, I always think I have selected a winner with a great bore. But how can I be sure? I really never know how a rifle will shoot. Some that appear to have like new bores shoot a wide group, while other rifles with dark barrels and worn, rounded rifling shoot tight groups. In the end, the only real test is the range test. One must take the so called “good” rifle out to shoot. The real accuracy test is to take it to the range and place the rifle on a sled and fire it. I have found that some rifle bores that I initially judged somewhat poor, shoot very well.

Since I was doing my yearly oiling of my rifles, I decided to snap a few photographs of the barrel bores so I can post about 50 photos of their overall condition. This can serve as a BORE PHOTO GUIDE. Some rifles with specific bore conditions that I wish to illustrate, I do not own. Therefore as part of the background research, I searched for example photos to add to the discussion in Parts 1 & 2. I compiled screen shots of these better photos. These include examples of counter bores, cracked or bulged barrels, and poor crowns. For these, I had to rely on reference photos from other sources. On the other hand, most of my photos in Part 3 will be of specific rifles that I actually own and have fired. They shoot fine at 100 yards. If they do not, I will let the reader know. For each rifle, I shall provide one or two photographic views of their bore taken from the muzzle. This collection of photos will provide a start to a photographic bore guide. Over time others can always add some more photographs of bores/rifling from different rifles that they own. My photos are from examples I own that are in good to average condition, not wall hangers, not safe queens. My goal is to first provide some primary information in Parts 1 & 2 about what to look for when looking at barrel condition. Some research photos will provide specific examples showing a range in barrel/bore conditions. In Part 3 you will see a photographic record of specific rifles selected at random as I did my yearly oiling. Photos will show their bore condition as well as what their rifling looks like.

Gunsmiths or the experts can provide and argue to refine/correct the definitions of the many bore terms I use. I will provide a photo and define the conditions shown in the sample photos found in the first two sections. I hope others can add comments and better descriptive photos, especially if they have advanced cameras to provide clear photographs. My pictures will be taken with an old, Canon Power Shot SD 1000. Other pictures are screen shots from the web and I have provided the source if known.

PART 1 BACKGROUND SOURCES

First, let’s look into some back ground references. Here is a screen shot diagram of the basic nomenclature of a barrel and its source information.

photo B
B   Nomenclature of a barrel.png
Nomenclature Back to Basics: Rifle Barrels, by David Campbell 15 May 2017, NRA American Rifleman
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articl ... e-barrels/

The next article, American Rifleman, Back to Basics: Rifling, by the same author, explains the basics of rifling and its purpose and influence on firearms. Mr Campbell outlines two basic types of rifling: conventional (found in most milsurps) and polygonal found in some pistols. Two examples of polygonal barrels are found in the Glock and CZ 83. In this post, I am mainly concerned with conventional rifling as found in military surplus rifles. I am providing one nice, clear example of a Glock bore photo obtained from the Glock Forum.

photo D
Screen Shot D   glock pistol source Glock pistol form .png
Screen Shot D glock pistol source Glock pistol form .png (141.56 KiB) Viewed 1087 times


I have no photo of a CZ 83’s bore. Examples of Polygonal rifling can be seen in the listed references.

Here is a diagram from the above source showing the two basic barrel types:

photo C
Screen Shot  C diagram of rifling .png
Polygonal rifling, even when new, looks like worn down rifling; like one has a worn out bore on a pistol, when in actuality it is a very good condition pistol barrel. Polygonal rifling exhibits a hexagonal looking interior with smooth rounded edges. There is less distinction between the lands and grooves. (Lands are the raised portions between the lower grooves inside the barrel)
Source article:
American Rifleman, Back to basics: Rifling by David Campbell, 21 July 2017 NRA American Rifleman.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articl ... s-rifling/




Barrel rifling is placed into the barrels of rifles or pistols to impart spin on the projectile. This following short article provides some information about conventional rifling:
A short history and description about rifling. By Firearms ID.com.
http://www.firearmsid.com/a_bulletidrifling.htm

Conventional rifling has pronounced sharp edges to the land and grooves. It is most commonly found in surplus rifles. A definition of each major type is as follows:
Conventional Rifling
The most common type of barrel rifling that you will find on most gun barrels is conventional rifling. This rifling features defined sharp lands and valleys. The bullet is slightly larger than the bore and is therefore forced into this shape producing marks on the bullet known as ‘rifling marks’.
These lands and valleys can vary in number, depth, shape, direction of twist (left or right) and twist rate, depending on manufacturer.
Polygonal Rifling
Polygonal barrel rifling has a much less defined set of lands and valleys, and is generally smoother in shape. This results in less resistance for the bullet when traveling down the barrel, higher bullet velocities and cleaner operation. The smoother bore deforms the bullet less than conventional rifling and supposedly leaves it more aerodynamically stable.
According to users, since the barrel rifling is still tight there is little to no difference in range or accuracy between the two. Although, polygonal rifling is reported to be easier to clean, as it’s less destructive to bullets and has less ‘corners’ for deposits to form.

Definition Source Abbysupply 2017
https://www.abbeysupply.com/blog/The_Di ... fling.html


Finally, more information can be found here: Barrels and Bullets Conventional Versus Polygonal Rifling by Cantrell 2010, Bearing Arms News.
see this link:
https://bearingarms.com/ccantrell/2010/ ... l-rifling/

PART 2 HOW TO INSPECT A BOLT ACTION CONVENTIONAL BORE

The purpose of this post is to act as a photographic guide (with all pictures posted through the forum with its 5 picture limit per post) showing the types and conditions of conventional bores observed on some commonly found milsurp rifles. THE BASICS are the same with pistols. However, I am not concerned with pistols. This discussion is primary about rifles. All of the later photos in Part 3 will show bore examples from military surplus rifles. For a general review of what attributes to consider when selecting a military surplus rifle, please review this post: Buying the first surplus rifle, what to look for.
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... 911#p17902

Gun boards inspecting a rifle reference:
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... finn+mosin



First, I want to talk about how to look at a rifle’s bore.
There are a variety of ways to view a muzzle/bore at an indoor gun show with poor lighting or at an outside rummage sale with good light. It is rare to carry a bore scope to a gun show. Viewing a bore with a bore scope is best done at home on the work bench or at the gunsmith. Expensive bore scopes allow gunsmiths to examine the internal sections of a bore that are inaccessible or not viewable by the naked eye or other methods. They offer a clear view with the ability to see and identify imperfections like tiny pits, cracks and heat erosion.

So lacking a bore scope, most buyers will use one or two of the three poor boy methods to view the interior of a bore (you need a light to see what’s in the barrel): 1) a bore light (this is the best method), 2) pull the bolt and hold the barrel up to a bright light source, or 3) place a piece of white typing paper that acts as a reflector in front of the bolt and get the the best, nearby light source to shine up (light up) the bore.

Bore light
The bore light comes in a variety of forms. I favor two types over a small pocket flashlight. I like the cartridge size Maglite called the “Solitaire.” This small LED Maglite works great because it can be placed on the follower like a cartridge within the magazine area or placed in the chamber so it will shine up the bore. The Solitaire has an adjustable beam that allows for a strong or diffuse glow. It is small and can rest on the follower with an open bolt still in the rifle. This tiny Maglite can also be set at an angle to lessen the light’s intensity or be utilized as a flash light to inspect other non bore-related details. Others prefer the Flex Bore light, a flashlight with a small cord that has a LED light on its end. This tiny light source can be inserted into the bore from either end. Both work well.

Hold up the Rifle
If you do not have or forgot your bore light, then you can remove the bolt from a bolt action rifle and point either end of the rifle toward a strong light source while looking up the bore or chamber to view its condition. The problem with this method is that the rifle can get heavy and you certainly do not want to drop it (this would certainly get the dealer’s attention), or smack someone in the head with an old milsurp!

Paper Reflector
Another safer method is to set the rifle’s butt on the ground, open the bolt while leaving it in the rifle, and then place a white piece of paper or handkerchief against the front face of the bolt covering the back portion of the receiver. While looking down the muzzle, turn the rifle toward the best light source possible so that light from the sun or room will shine onto the paper and reflect up the bore allowing you to view the bore’s condition- a poor mans bore light! Consequently, when utilizing any of these three methods to inspect the bore; if the bore is clean, not dark, has distinct edges to the lands & grooves, has visible rifling, it is usually a good average bore. You discovered a winner!
Last edited by 72 usmc on Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:13 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#2 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:15 pm

So what to look at first when inspecting a rifle barrel?

Here we go. Before I even get my bore light out, I am concerned about five items: a counterbore, the condition of the crown, if the rifling continues up to the end of the bore, if the barrel has any above the wood bulges or cracks, and then I want to gauge the muzzle’s internal size with a bore gauge.

Counterbore
I am a counterbore snob. I hate barrels that have been counterbored. It is a repair to a rifle. The first photo is a Mosin, the second is a Turk Mauser, each was counterbored.
photo Z2
Screen Shot  Z2 counter bore great photo.png
Screen Shot Z2 counter bore great photo.png (98.28 KiB) Viewed 1084 times

photo Z3
Screen Shot Z3 counteredbored turk.png
On a Mosin, a counterbore is an authentic arsenal repair, on others like a Mauser or Enfield, it should not be present. Ivan never threw anything away. A counterbore is when a damaged muzzle is refreshed by removing damaged rifling by a drilling process that removes the inner diameter of the barrel down to a depth where good rifling still exists. This boring process can extend an inch or two deep. It retains the original barrel length, but enlarges the interior of the muzzle producing a clean internal edge like a new crown that does not hinder the bullet. It improves accuracy to a worn muzzle.

Another solution to correct for a damaged muzzle is to cut off the barrel a wee bit, maybe re-attaching the front sight depending on how much must be cut to get to good rifling, and then re-crown the barrel. Both procedures restore a beat barrel with a poor muzzle. However, you have to wonder if the muzzle is in poor condition, what about the rest of the barrel? For me, it’s a repair that may be an arsenal repair or not, but more importantly, it is an indication of a pitiful bore that may exhibit additional problems that have not been corrected. Does the poor muzzle condition reflect the general condition and care of the rifle? What other problems may be found: a dark bore, worn rifling, its chamber may have erosion to the throat, pits in the chamber walls, or dings to chamber’s outer edges. A counterbore may or may not enhance accuracy. It is a cheep way to restore accuracy— maybe. It is a roll of the dice. You have to shoot it and see the results. A counterbore will always sell for a lower price. Like a cracked stock, refinished stock, or missing cleaning rod on a milsurp; all detract from the price when its comes time to sell the rifle. For more information on counterbores see beantownshootah’s great photo & post in the link below.

picture Z
Z    beantownshootah pic  counterbore .png
Source: Picture of a Counterbore vs Normal Barrel, by beantownshootah 2011, Gunbroker Forum
https://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=510998


Also see the link to the: Anatomy of a Counterbore, by Fal Grunt 2017, Gunboards
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread ... ounterbore
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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#3 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:32 pm

Crown
Second, I take a look at the crown of the muzzle. Most old milsurps have really beat crowns or show a heavy patina. The barrel crown should be square with the bore and the edge should be sharp and crisp. Only the most obvious damage to a crown is actually visible. From the Midway USA Gun Dictionary:
Definition for "crown" : The shaping of the point on a muzzle where the end of the bore intersects with the face of the end of the barrel. A variety of different styles and shapes of crowns have evolved to meet specific shooting needs. Maintaining uniformity and consistency of the crown is important as this is the last point of the bore that the bullet contacts as it exits the barrel


Look at the crown for evidence of rifling extending up to its edge, rust, chips, or dings at its interior. Here are pictures of a new Tokarev barrel that I own and Calf's Yugo Mauser with a new barrel. Notice how clean and sharpe the rifling is. The rifling extends up to the end of the barrel and meets the crown.

photo E
IMG_3525  E  tok new bore .jpg

photo F
Screen Shot F 2018-12-30 at 8.32.39 PM.png
Here are photos of rifle crowns in good condition. The first two views are of a Mosin 91/30 and M44 crown, and the third is a Mauser crown with a barrel with some frost.
photo GGG
IMG_7937 91 30 Mosin crown nice GGG .jpg
photo G
IMG_4376 G  M44 mosin good crown.jpg
photo H Mauser with good crown and some frost in the bore.
Screen Shot H good crownnand decent barrel.png
Screen Shot H good crownnand decent barrel.png (145.77 KiB) Viewed 1078 times
Here is a link to a Midway video on: The Importance of the Muzzle Crown for Accuracy. See this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsg-Yt6t-HM
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#4 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:38 pm

Rifling
I always look at the top of the muzzle to inspect if the rifling extends to the crown or if the rifling has been worn down by the use of segmented, steel cleaning rods. On this next photo of a Mauser, I could not see any rifling extending to the end of the bore. Furthermore, the bore appears a wee bit dark. The crown is in about average condition for a well used VZ 24 Mauser. On this rille, I would have to get out my bore light or a flashlight in order to give it a quick inspection. Actually, after a closer look, it was found that well worn rifling did extend to the crown. I purchased it, and it shoots OK. A good case of “you just never know till you shoot a rifle”. The second screen shot photo shows an example of a bore where the rifling definitely does not extend up to the crown. I would not purchase a rifle with a barrel in this condition.
The final photo is a good example of a K98 Mauser lacking intact rifling. This rifle is something most would not care to purchase as a shooter. The crown has a few small dings. While I own the Mauser, this k98 shoots poorly. When I aim at a central target; it will hit the adjacent target to its left! This was purchased as a parts rifle for its unmolested stock. See the bottom picture M.

photo K VZ 24
IMG_8609  K vz 24 crown average surplus rifle.jpg
photo L
Screen Shot L 2018-12-09 at 3.35.48 PM.png
Screen Shot L 2018-12-09 at 3.35.48 PM.png (306.1 KiB) Viewed 1074 times

photo K98 M
M  K98 with little to no rifling extending to crown & dark bore.jpg
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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#5 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:43 pm

Barrel
Fourth, I always inspect the exposed portion of the barrel that is visible above the wood line. I am looking for barrel cracks or more common, slight barrel bulges. Some of these are so slight that they can only be felt by your hand running over the exposed metal of the bore. It is a feel thing. Sometimes you can feel this bulge with your fingernail on the outside of the barrel. You may also want to run a patch down the bore to see if you feel a gap that allows the patch to slip/slid easier all of the sudden. There may also be a release of pressure that you can feel with a very tight patch pushed down the barrel. A barrel bulge can sometimes be observed if you look down the top outside of the barrel. While doing this, also check if the barrel looks straight. Sometimes you cannot feel or see a bulge. Later, during a bore light inspection, clues can be seen inside the bore such as a dark ring that might suggest the location of a barrel bulge. Most of the time this condition is not discovered until after the purchase. It is discovered too late, during the initial disassembly and cleaning process. Here are some photos of a barrel crack and bulges taken from the web. I do not buy rifles in this condition. If I did, it would become a parts rifle. First shown is a photo of a barrel crack. The second photo is one of a Tokarev barrel with a bulge. What follows are two additional views of bulged rifle barrels. One is of a modern hunting rifle. Source of photos is web screen views.
Photo N
Screen Shot  N  crack under wood and bluge.png
Photo O
Screen Shot  O  bulge tokarev barrel.png
Photo P
P  screen shot bulge.jpg
Photo Q
Screen Shot  Q  bulge.png
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#6 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:50 pm

Rust Pits
A fifth condition that can be found after the purchase during the disassembly is the presence of deep rust pits. These are not generally seen on the surface; they are found under the wood on rifles used in the world’s jungles. Wet wood from constant jungle rains causes rust. It can be severe where it has eaten half way into the barrel. Not much can be done to identify this prior to purchase. If you see deep rust pits at the wood line on the outside of the barrel use some caution. It may be a clue to a worse condition under the wood.
photo R
Screen Shot R deep pits use caution.png
Screen Shot R deep pits use caution.png (247.47 KiB) Viewed 1071 times
photo S
Screen Shot  S  very deep pits under wood .png

Muzzle Gauge
Finally, I take my bore gauge and measure how much wear is at the muzzle. I want to find out the degree of wear in some actual empirical measurement. Some also use a throat gauge in the chamber. I don't really worry about TE too much on a bolt action rifle. If it was an M1 Garand, it would be different. Spend your time looking at the general condition of the bore with an emphasis on the muzzle. A barrel with a high TE measurement and a pitted barrel can still shoot fine provided the muzzle crown is still in good condition.

The CMP and Fulton armory sell nice muzzle gauges. The Fulton Armory gauge is a .30 caliber tool calibrated in thousands of an inch which is carefully inserted into the rifle’s muzzle. It should fit snug, but not tight. A good M1 carbine should read 0 if it has a new or like new barrel, if it swallows the gauge you have a counterbored rifle or a poor barrel with lots of muzzle wear. The three pictures below show: the Fulton gauge, its use in the bore of an M1 carbine providing a wear measurement for its muzzle at 0.5, and the gauge in its improvised holder —a red Bic pen tip. This pen holder protects the gauge and I can easily see it on a table due to its red color. You do not want to leave your tiny gauge at the gun show.
photo sss1
Fulton muzzle gaughe SSS1.jpg

photo SSS2
Gauge in M1 carbine  reads .5 SSS2.jpg
photo sss3
maglite and bic pen tip to store gauge sss3.jpg
You have to understand the correct bore size of a new bore if you also use this gauge on a Mosin. A Mosin has a land to land nominal bore diameter of .300" or 7.62mm. So on a like new Mosin barrel the gauge will go up to or over the 3 mark. I have a black sharpie mark to indicate where it indicates a good bore on a Mosin. It is an incorrect gauge for this rifle. Likewise, on a .303 British Enfield, the gauge will insert up to the handle on a new bore because it has a size of .303 inch with the bore diameter measured between the lands as is common practice in Europe. The Fulton muzzle gauge is a .30 caliber gauge. I altered it by adding a ring of packaging tape near the end so it measures beyond 3 thousands of wear on an Enfield. Again an incorrect use of the gauge- but a make-do alteration so I can use it on Mosins and Enfields. Here are the instructions from Fulton armory for its correct use on a .30 caliber barrel:
…insert the the gauge into the muzzle as shown. Read the gauge directly from the side. Observe where the muzzle "falls" on the gauge.
• 0.0 indicates a .300 diameter bore, that is, .30 caliber, new, perfect.
• 0.5 is like new, .3005 caliber. Proper re-crowning will perfect the crown.
• 1.0 is excellent for a used barrel (.301 cal.) Re-crowning should make it like new.
• 1.5 is good (.3015 cal.). Proper re-crowning should make it excellent.
• 2.0 is fair (.302 cal.). Proper re-crowning should make it serviceable.
• 2.5 is poor (.3025 cal.). Proper re-crowning might make it serviceable.
• 3.0 or more is a "bald tire" and is now a British .303 caliber barrel. Replace barrel
Source Fulton Armory
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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#7 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:53 pm

Some are not too concerned about an actual number and will use a poor boy’s “bullet test”. People want to know how much muzzle wear is on a rifle. On some rifles like the M1 carbine or M1 Garand cleaning takes place from the muzzle end. This can cause wear to the rifling from the sectional, steel cleaning rod rubbing against the rifling and crown. Over time this damages the muzzle by enlarging its land to land measurements at the muzzle. The rifling can get wore away so smooth that rifling is no longer present at the end of the barrel. If the rifling at the muzzle is really worn, this will certainly effect the barrel’s accuracy.
photo bullet test SSS 5
Screen Shot  bullet tsest SSS5.png

The bullet test is a cheap way to indicate the amount of wear. It can give you a generalization of how bad a bore may be. If you insert a dummy round bullet into the muzzle and it goes in up to the brass case or swallows the entire neck of the case, there is a lot of wear, or it is a counterbore. On a good bore, (you do not know how good?) the bullet should enter the muzzle and stop at some point on the side of the bullet. The trick is how far? Individual plug gages measured by thousands say— .300 through .309 thousands will provide a better feel for the land to land condition at the muzzle. In a like new British or Mosin barrel, the .303 or .304 plug should slip in. The lower photo shows two plug gauges out of a Mauser set of 10. Each gauge increases by .001. These cost approximately $100 a set. You can also get different sets. I also have an Enfield set of 10 plug gauges.
plug gauge photo sss4
Mauser plug gauges  SSS4.jpg
I don’t like the poor boy "bullet test" as each bullet is going to be slightly different in diameter when using different ammunition or a dummy round. The only true way to gauge/determine how worn the muzzle is, is to use an actual muzzle or plug gauge made of hardened steel that has accurate increments shown on the tool.
Here are links to a muzzle gauge and a TE gauge:
https://www.fulton-armory.com/muzzlewea ... bores.aspx
https://www.brownells.com/aspx/search/p ... &source=ir
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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#8 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:03 pm

The Bore Inspection. What are the details to look for or view in the barrel?

Next I want to show some photos of the general conditions associated with specific terms such as: a new, a bad, an average, a dark, a frosted barrel, and a polished barrel. We have seen what a new barrel looks like. Here is a photo of a Finnish M 39 Mosin with a new bore. This is one sweet barrel! A Winner.
Finnish Mosin photo T
Finnish mosin T  new bore  copy.png
Looking at a drastic contrast, here is a view of a “sewer pipe” bore, it is a view of my Krag drill rifle’s bore. Not a great shooter and a nightmare to clean.
Krag photo U
IMG_3848 U  drillkrag poor bore copy.jpg
IMG_3848 U drillkrag poor bore copy.jpg (20.94 KiB) Viewed 1067 times
So what does an average bore on a well used Milsurp look like that still shoots fine? Here is a view of a 98/22 Czech Mauser. This is a great shooter.
98/22 photo V
Screen Shot 2018-12-30 at 9.00.56 PM.png


Here is another view of an average condition bore on a Mauser. This one has well rounded lands, no sharp edges, yet it shoots fine at 100 yards.
Mauser photo W
2 copy  W mauser average bore some wear rounded.jpg


What follows are two views of what one can consider average bores found on Mosin Nagant M44 rifles. This photo is of a M44 Mosin with good rifling, but it has some light rust spots in the bore.
Mosin photo X
X  91 30 average bore some rust.jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#9 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:14 pm

This next photo listed below is another example of an average bore on a 91/30 Mosin, it is somewhat dark, but has no rust and is an excellent shooter.
Mosin photo Y
IMG_7961  Y Mosin  average bore.jpg

As a contrast, here is an additional photo of a poor bore showing well rounded lands, it is what I would consider a dark bore exhibiting rust and pitting. The second close up is of an Argentine Mauser’s poor barrel and crown with rust and eroded rifling. Hardly any rifling is intact at the muzzle of this specimen. Source: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Is_m ... /2-352931/
photo AA
08  poor bore AA .png
08 poor bore AA .png (187.38 KiB) Viewed 1067 times
Argentine Photo BB
Screen Shot Argentine Mauser BB.png
Screen Shot Argentine Mauser BB.png (176.78 KiB) Viewed 1067 times
Next is a photo of a clean bore with well rounded rifling, but it has a specific condition referred to as a “frost.” The definition of frost may be stated as having some discoloration or "frosting" of the surface of the steel. It is not heavily pitted, it is not rusty, it is not smooth & shiny, but has a mottled look. The barrel exhibits a mild surface roughness to its surface. It is not a deal killer. I have found such well worn, frosty, barrels to shoot well.
Here is an interesting article showing the target hits by Mosin rifles with different bore conditions; its title is: Impact of Bore Condition on Accuracy of a Military Surplus Rifle. The source is PreciseShooter.com.
This article is found in their reference Library under Range Reports and the title (Impact of Bore Condition on Accuracy of a Military Surplus Rifle). Here is the link:
https://www.preciseshooter.com/blog/Bor ... uracy.aspx

Additional information discussing pistol accuracy is found in, Does a rough bore mean poor accuracy? by Brad Miller 2016, Shooting Times. Link :
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial ... racy/99084#

Here is a reference photo showing an old pistol bore verses a good pistol bore referenced from the above source (Shooting Times).
photo DD
DD   Screen Shot tshooting times source.png
This is a view of my new PhP MV17 pistol barrel.
photo DD 1
new bore PhP MV 17 DD1.JPG
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

72 usmc
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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#10 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:21 pm

Polish
Most will polish a dull/dark chamber on a milsurp rifle, a few might polish a rough bore. Some use JB bore paste, Comet cleanser, while others use lapping compound to achieve a mirror bright chamber or bore. Polishing a chamber is good. Polishing a bore can/may improve accuracy, but I have never attempted it. I would rather just buy a specimen with a decent bore to start with. Find the best rifle you can afford, unless you like tinkering on them. Anything you put down your bore from a patch, steel brush, brass brush or nylon brush with some abrasive material, has an effect of removing some amount of metal through the polishing. Removal of imperfections to obtain a shiny or uniform surface in the bore has a tendency to round over the rifling and smooth down the edges of the pits. Whether the rifle accuracy will benefit from a polish is a risk. The bore will be easier to clean because the pit craters are smoothed over. How it shoots depends on how aggressive the polish or lapping is. Who knows? If I am purchasing a rifle, I generally avoid super, mirror bright, highly polished bores with well rounded rifling as shown in the lower photo:
photo EE
polished bore EE .png
At least this example shown in the above photo still has some rifling and most likely will hit a target. Others I have seen, have been polished so much it is difficult to see its rifling. Polished too oblivion is not good. I would avoid such a specimen. For me, barrel life is judged in empirical observations: the best bet is to shoot the rifle before and after and see if the groups get larger and larger or smaller as one polishes a bore. With any rifle, as bore wear get worse, the groups get larger and larger over time. Barrel life is measured by the number of shots, the manner in which it is cleaned or not cleaned, and the climate or conditions it is used or stored in.

There are a few other inner barrel attributes that indicate a damaged bore. During my bore light inspection, I look for dings or gouges in barrel, isolated sections exhibiting deep pits or missing exfoliated rifling, and erosion rings. Here are three photos: the first showing deep barrel pits, the second showing a gouge, and the third showing an erosion ring.
photo FF deep pits
Screen Shot  FF  deep pits lands erosion eaten away .png
photo GG gouge
Screen Shot  GG 2018-12-24 at 11.13.05 AM.png
Screen Shot GG 2018-12-24 at 11.13.05 AM.png (126.52 KiB) Viewed 1063 times
photo HH erosion ring
erosion ring  HH.jpeg
erosion ring HH.jpeg (7.83 KiB) Viewed 1063 times
source all 5 of these are screen shot from the web


Disintegrating bore phenomena
One thing to watch out for is a barrel that is dark and dirty, but looks like a average barrel with rifling. Just a dark, even, nice bore with rifling. It exhibits a bore that appears to have fired 100 rounds that day and was put away dirty. Some dealers have old military rifles with such dirty looking barrels. The Problem, and this is a big PROBLEM, the rifle may have been sitting in some overseas arsenal or Legion building not cleaned for years, or they are already know as having a pitted bore and the dealer is masking its condition because he knows it's a garbage bore. He fired a few rounds in it to dirty it up. If you buy it "because it will clean up fine" :lol: :lol: :snooty: :snooty: you can end up with a dog due to poor long term storage, or poor sales practices to hide a bores true condition. Buy it & Clean it up and the barrel turns out to be a sewer pipe with heavy frost, or has worse-- deep pits or exfoliating, crumbling rifling due to corrosive ammo in barrel that was never cleaned and set stock piled for years in some arsenal. An honest dealer/seller will have a clean bore for the best sale- if not buyer beware.


Summary
What do I look for in a barrel when purchasing a milsurp rifle?

A clean bore so it can be inspected
No barrel bore internal damages
No counterbore
No bulges or deep rust pits on the outside of the barrel
Sharp, crisp and distinct land and grooves in the rifling
Rifling extending to the crown
A good crown
A bore with a good muzzle gauge reading
A mirror like chamber lacking dings along edges of the chamber
A barrel that has not been cut/shortened from its original length
An original barrel with proper markings- not a replacement

And finally, something I did not discuss. A rifle that passes a FIELD headspace test with the barrel that matches its bolt. In addition, I like original chambering, not some re-chambered/rebuilt gunsmith or importer special. In a perfect world, I desire a non-import marked specimen. If the milsurp has an import mark, I’d rather have a tiny one on the barrel than a huge, billboard like import mark on the receiver. Finally, I want original military configuration. However, this may not always be the case when it comes to specific specimens like a Norwegian K98 or Israeli K98. For a review of all the attributes I consider when looking for a milsurp please review my 29 Nov 2018 post: Buying my first surplus rifle, what to look for.
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... 911#p17902

You can also read this excellent write up from Tread: Quick Inspection of Milsurp Rifles by Noah Zark, 2011, Milsurps forum.
Link.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=30219
Last edited by 72 usmc on Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#11 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:27 pm

PART 3 Photos of Rifle Bores. EXAMPLES

If members have examples of other rifles not shown, please take two views of their bores and add them to this data base. My photos are of bolt action WW I and WW II rifles. I am not fascinated by the newer semi auto rifles, so some pictures of their bores would be a nice addition to have. Each example should identify the rifle and show 1 or 2 photos of its bore. All pictures will be posted through the forum method with a limit of 5 pictures per post. There will be a great number of posts, but the photographic record should stay in place since no secondary photo host is used.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#12 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:38 pm

First is a Mannlicher M95 in 50 R Pictures will be below the description in all examples.
M95 carbine 50r  3.jpg
M95  carbine 50 R .jpg


Next is another Mannlicher M95 carbine in 56R
M95  budapest good bore .56 R.jpg

Here is my Ex-Legion, burial ceremony Krag used with blanks and not cleaned to often :naughty: It does not shoot worth a ....
IMG_3849 drill krag poor bore2.jpg
IMG_3848 drillkrag poor bore.JPG
IMG_3848 drillkrag poor bore.JPG (20.94 KiB) Viewed 1057 times
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#13 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:42 pm

Here is a nice French Mas 36.
MAS 36 av bore.jpg
Mas 36 av bore 2.jpg






Here is a French Berthier.
berthier barrel .jpg
berthier nice barrel.jpg
berthier nice barrel.jpg (48.71 KiB) Viewed 1054 times
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#14 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:48 pm

Here is A Swiss K 31 with like new bore.
IK 31 swiss 2.jpg
K31 swiss .jpg



Here is a Italian Carcano cavalry 6.5
carcano cavalry carbine.jpg
Cavarly carcano carbine.jpg
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: RIFLE BORE PHOTO GUIDE

#15 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:53 pm

Here are some Japanese rifles, first a type 38 two different rifles examples.
IType 38 2 great bore.jpg
Type 38 .jpg
type 38.jpg

Here is a type 99. Chrome lined bore indicated by the shiny ring at the muzzle.
Type 99.jpg
type 99 2.jpg
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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