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Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:26 pm
by Kevinofborg
So I was looking around Gun Broker and saw a auction for Webley Mark IV with a 2 and a 5 inch barrel and cylinder sets. Hmm that seems odd so I googled it and found a link that I thought was dead but is here:

http://www.nrvoutdoors.com/ENFIELD%20SN ... 20SNUB.htm

I was going to post some of the information that I found on the wayback save of this site but you can go there. IT IS A GREAT READ. I sent an email to the guy that wrote it and he emailed me back so I was very happy to see that. His name is Tom Caceci and he sometimes writes for Gun Digest.

Well the auction had poor pictures and not much details in the write up (Webley Scott MK IV in 38s&w with 5 inch barrel and extra 2 inch with cylinder. This is the tightest mechanically Webley I have ever touched. Early 127xxx serial number.) and after a few questions about the bore(s) and marks on the barrels I put in the only and winning bid. Well I picked "them" up at the old FFL on Friday and started to look at them. I noticed that the serial numbers on the cylinder and bottom of the 2" barrel matched the frame that had the 5 in barrel with cylinder attached. So I figured out how to disassemble it and moved the cylinder from the 2 inch to the 5 inch and it kind of bound up. So I disassembled it some more and moved the 2 inch set to the frame (noticing the extractor lever assembly matched the frame) and everything worked great! It does lockup very tight on trigger pull.

So I have a "War Finish" Webley Mk IV in 38 S&W that has been shortened to a snub nose with a 2 inch barrel that is all matching. The smith did a very good job when and by whom I do not know. Maybe Mr R.L. Johnson (you have to read the link above) maybe not. The author does not think so because the Enfields commissioned to be cut were cheaper then the Webleys but he did convert S&Ws also and that was not a cheap gun in its day.

I also have a 5 inch barrel and cylinder set that looks to be from a commercial gun.

Both barrels look to be very clean with very good rifling.

Well I bore you with the words so we need some pictures.

Thanks,
Kevin

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:28 pm
by Kevinofborg
More pictures:

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:29 pm
by Kevinofborg
A few more of the 5 inch configuration:

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:40 pm
by Kevinofborg
Some more

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:41 pm
by Kevinofborg
more

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:42 pm
by Kevinofborg
lastly

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:45 pm
by Kevinofborg
Well while I had been waiting for this "package" to show up I went and bought some Fiocchi 38 S&W Corto - 38 S&W Short in 145G FMJ and after the Dog Park visit today I headed to the range.

Shot the 2 inch configuration first and it went bang and bang five more times reload and six more and the little holes in the paper were about 6 to 6 inches below my point of aim. Well let me try the 5 inch package which I changed out while waiting for the cease fire. Well the holes were about point of aim but where did the paper go? So I shot at the top of the paper and look at that key holing!! Well what to do about that.

I was shooting at 7 yards.

Thanks
Kevin

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:23 pm
by les1234
I wonder what the diameter of those FMJ bullets is?

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:58 am
by S.B.
Great thread, thanks for posting this. I have my eye set for a MkIV(as issued). I can see one in my future.
Steve

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:49 am
by RWS
I wonder what the diameter of those FMJ bullets is?
Me too, Les.

Your nomenclature is correct, Kevin with regard to what Fiocchi calls the ammo you bought, but there is no such thing as .38 S&W SHORT to the best of my knowledge.

I mean, there is .38 Long Colt and .38 Short Colt, rounds which preceded the .38 Special round. These three cartridges all have the same case diameters and use .357" diameter bullets.

There is also .38 S&W, which uses a fatter case and takes .360"-.361" bullets, same as the British .38-200. So... we know you need .360" bullets but with their weird nomenclature it's not clear to me what diameter bullet Fiocchi is using. If they are using .357" bullets then key-holing kinda makes sense. I think you need to try some other brand(s) of .38 S&W ammo before you can draw any conclusions.

-Bob

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:27 pm
by Kevinofborg
This is the information I found on Fiocchi USA:

Stock # Caliber Bullet Wght Bullet Type Muzzle Velocity, FPS Per case Per box Bx per Case Line
38SWSHA 38 S & W Short 145 FMJ 720 1000 50 20 SPECIALTY

Looks like they also have one in the Cowboy line which has a LRN bullet type but the same specs.

On page 20 of the 2017 catalog it even has a picture of a top break that looks just like my Webley (maybe a Mk VI) except it has no Webley on the grips. Both the .38 SW (Short) and .455 Webley are on this page.

On Page 36 the BS begins:

For the round in question it has "Due to the nature of Specialty products, ballistics are not available." The Cowboy load does have info.

I measured one of the ones I did not shoot and the bullet is .3545

The slug of the 5 inch barrel is .361"

I was lucky on Gunboards forum and called 2nds on one of Frank's brass sale of some once fired Star 38S&W. The winner PMed me and said he really did not need the whole 350 so he sold me 175 of the brass. I found this link:

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?m ... cts_id=283

and some people that used them:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... -amp-Scott

So I will order some and try them out.

Kevin

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:55 pm
by RWS
Well, assuming you measured accurately, you're about .008" undersize on them there bullets, so key-holing is as much to be expected as a surprise.

.3545" is 9mm territory, normally .355", so they're even slightly undersized for 9mm. PRVI makes inexpensive .38 S&W ammo that is usually pretty easy to find. Might try a box of it. Mag-Tech and Winchester also make it, perhaps others as well.

-Bob

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:04 pm
by Kevinofborg
Bob,

I updated my above post with some 200G boolits I found. I would still say that I would not want to be hit by one of those undersized Fiocchi's!!

Kevin

Re: Webley Mark IV package

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:51 pm
by S.B.
RWS wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:49 am
I wonder what the diameter of those FMJ bullets is?
Me too, Les.

Your nomenclature is correct, Kevin with regard to what Fiocchi calls the ammo you bought, but there is no such thing as .38 S&W SHORT to the best of my knowledge.

I mean, there is .38 Long Colt and .38 Short Colt, rounds which preceded the .38 Special round. These three cartridges all have the same case diameters and use .357" diameter bullets.

There is also .38 S&W, which uses a fatter case and takes .360"-.361" bullets, same as the British .38-200. So... we know you need .360" bullets but with their weird nomenclature it's not clear to me what diameter bullet Fiocchi is using. If they are using .357" bullets then key-holing kinda makes sense. I think you need to try some other brand(s) of .38 S&W ammo before you can draw any conclusions.

-Bob
Poster could always pull one and then mike it to determine diameter?
Steve