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New Mark VI

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marsmen
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New Mark VI

#1 Post by marsmen » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:28 pm

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I picked this up and wanted to get some information here. First it has a S on the side bottom of each grip is this just a manufacturer mark. Second I think it may have been refinished and reissued has a Star on the top side , also on the rear grip strap has the following marks K. A under this is 4.41 (would this be April 1941?)Image[/img][/img][/img][/img]. On the base of the grip in front of the lanyard ring is a N. The England I assume is a export mark. Any information will be great . Thankshttp://www.surplusrifleforum.com/download/file ... ew&id=4851
Last edited by marsmen on Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New Mark VI

#2 Post by marsmen » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:31 pm

http://www.surplusri
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fleforum.com/download/file.php?mode=view&id=4856
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Re: New Mark VI

#3 Post by RWS » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:37 am

A picture would help a lot. Doesn't look like any of yours are viewable. I can walk you through the photo upload process if you need any assistance.

The "S" on the grip stands for "Small" and is more often associated with Enfield rather than Webley Mk VI revolvers, although it's not uncommon to find Webleys that have been fitted with Enfield grips. There are also Mk VI grips out there with "M" and "L" markings (medium & large) as well.

So... do you have a Webley or an Enfield Mk VI? Webleys will be marked on the left side of the frame with WW1 dates. Enfields will be marked on the right side of the frame with 1920's dates.

Webley was a commercial firm that produced the Mk VI revolver for the British military from 1915-1918. When WW1 ended the British government cancelled Webley's contract for revolvers. Then, just a few years later, the Enfield government arsenal started producing Mk VI revolvers pretty much identical to the Webley Mk VI's. Webley sued the British government for patent infringement and won, so Enfield was forced to cease production of the Mk VI.

You will want to know if your revolver is in the original .455 caliber or has been modified for use with .45 acp cases. The quickest and easiest test (with the revolver closed and unloaded) is to try to insert a nickel between the back of the cylinder and the recoil plate. If the nickel won't go then it is probably still in .455 caliber, and if it DOES slide in then it's probably been converted/modified for use with .45 acp or .45 AutoRim cases/ammo.

All the other stuff can best be assessed with some viewable photos.

-Bob

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Re: New Mark VI

#4 Post by marsmen » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:17 pm

Thanks Bob. added pictures >Thanks

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Re: New Mark VI

#5 Post by RWS » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:51 am

The pictures help. I am now reasonably certain you have an Enfield Mk VI revolver, as opposed to a Webley Mk VI. There should be an Enfield crest on the right side of the frame. You can verify that since there are no photos of the right side of the frame. All the info below is simply "to the best of my knowledge". I welcome any corrections.

Backstrap markings are typically unit/date/rack markings. Ian Skennerton is THE British firearms expert. In his book "The Broad Arrow" he indicates that firearms marked K.A. were assigned to the Karachi Artillery Volunteers unit and, as you surmise, 4.41 is the issue date of April, 1941 (not the manufacture date, which is in the 1920's). Pakistan did not split away from India until 1947 so although Karachi is in modern-day Pakistan, it was a part of India in 1941, and India was a major British empire ally. Had there been a third line on the backstrap of your revolver it would typically have been a rack or issue number.

Also, by 1941 all the No. 1 .455 revolvers would have been relegated to second line status. The (then) new Enfield No. 2 revolvers in .38/200 caliber would have been the first line issue service sidearms, which is yet another reason why transference of your revolver to India is logical.

Speaking of the broad arrow, it is a British military acceptance mark and British military firearms usually have bunches of them. You can see a good example on the left side of your trigger. Looks like sorta like this... ->. When a British firearm was considered obsolete it was often "Sold Out Of Service", the symbol for which is two broad arrows facing each other like this... -><-. Looks more like an asterisk but is supposed to be two broad arrows. I think I see this mark on the left side of the top strap but when I try to zoom in the photo gets too fuzzy to be positive. However, in conjunction with the two broad arrows one sometimes sees the "England" stamp as well, especially if it was going to the U.S., so I think it probably was sold out of service.

When the letter "N" is stamped on a British firearm it usually stands for Navy. The letter N on your revolver is a bit smaller than what I am accustomed to seeing on Webley Mk Vi's, and one probably only sees maybe one Enfield Mk Vi for every 10 Webley Mk VI's so I can't be positive of the naval connection, but it's my best guess. If I am correct I would expect that this marking would have been applied in its earlier life prior to the Indian transfer.

I'm not at all certain about the star but it has been customary for years to mark British rearsenaled/refurbished firearms with a F.T.R. mark, standing for Factory Thorough Repair, so if it had been refinished and reissued it would probably have had worn small parts replaced at the same time and would normally be sporting the FTR marking. One internet source says a 5-pointed star on the butt of a handgun indicates "Aid From England", i.e. that it was a gift to a foreign ally. This would make sense since your revolver was transferred from England to India but again, I'm not sure that the source is correct. Just don't know for sure.

Did you try the nickel test to see if it is in its original .455 caliber? This is a big deal with respect to the value of the gun. Unconverted .455 revolvers are worth considerably more to collectors than those that have been converted to .45 acp.

-Bob

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Re: New Mark VI

#6 Post by marsmen » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:52 am

Thanks Bob .

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Re: New Mark VI

#7 Post by marsmen » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:09 am

Bob I do not see any Enfield marking on right side of frame , on the left side just below the cylinder it is marked Webley Mark VI Patents 1916. And as you have stated many broad head arrows on the gun. So would this gun started in W.W.I England , then to India in W.W. II , and to the USA in the 1950's . SAs with most surplus guns has a long history and Service life . Thanks again for your help Bob.

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Re: New Mark VI

#8 Post by RWS » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:15 am

Ah, I couldn't read the Webley Patents marking. In fact, it's getting hard for me to read anything anymore.

So... as you say, a WW1 Webley with Enfield grips. All the other marking info applies though, I believe.

-Bob

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Re: New Mark VI

#9 Post by marsmen » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:20 am

Bob I know the feeling my arms are to short now to read small , so I always have to carry a extra pair of eyes . I am like Fred Sanford I have glasses all over the home .

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Re: New Mark VI

#10 Post by S.B. » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:03 pm

Fred Sanford? You are dating yourself my friend. Making me feel old.
Steve

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