7.65 French Long.

Les Révolvers et Pistolets de Militaires Français, Mle.1873, 1892, 1935, Unique, Ruby, et alia
72 usmc
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

I've had three boxes of original French long from the early 1950's for years. Of course none of it would go bang so I pulled a full box and used the powder and bullets in new Starline cases. It made some very nice ammo and it shot very well with an excellent group.
Tuna what OAL are you using with the components from the original French rounds you took down ? The same OAL as the military round? What brand die and shell holder are you using. What # shell holder? I found the .32 French long sp.order RCBS is best for starline brass. I plan to do the same with 400 rounds I have. Thanks
This is RCBS shell holder special order:
Screen Shot 2020-01-17 at 2.36.54 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-01-17 at 2.36.54 PM.png (188.5 KiB) Viewed 1657 times
Anything I should know about that you may have encountered with the take down French components, or any difficulties you encountered reloading the Starling brass with these components. Any suggestions or pointers to put forth?


Venturing uses 1.194 and Gara uses 1.137, and Swihartmark uses 1.125/1.025, my military cartridges measure OAL on an average of 3 :
Now the steel case military ammo. I measured about 3 of each year and OAL comes out all over the place:
AS 1947 1.191 OAL
JA 1945 1.193 OAL
AT 1947 1.186 OAL
A ? 1946 1.198 OAL
VE FY 1951 1.191 OAL


I have also observed bullet weight irregularities in the pulled tips due to lead overflow. These are pulled from original; French steel case .32 French long cartridges, see a sample below:
IMG_2442.jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Tuna
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by Tuna »

Well I am using a set of Lee dies in 7.65 French Long. The shell holder is the standard one that came with the dies and has worked fine. I use one round taken out of the box at random and set the seating. Then I pulled the rounds and used them in the Starline brass. But the first thing I did was to run each case through the sizer and then set in a primer. Once that was done I just pulled a round and transferred over the powder and bullet. I have not had any of the pulled bullets with a lead overflow as the ones you show. All have been like the one laying on its side.

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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Thank YouTuna, some more interesting results with Starline brass:
I do not, nor do I cast. It would probably be beneficial, but there's only so much time.

A small update:

I slugged the bore...it measures .313"! So those .312" bullets will nearly inevitably provide better accuracy anyway. I bought 1000 Berry's 71gr .32 ACP bullets to load with.

I have 150 rounds loaded up. I decided to start from scratch since I have a new bullet and I really wasn't sure how the capacity of the purpose-made cases compares with that of the converted revolver brass. One set is with Power Pistol, another with TiteGroup, and one with IMR Green.

Will let you know when I shoot em.

Chris_1522

Link Posted: 8/24/2019 9:40:46 PM EST
Well, shot 150 of my loads in the new Starline brass today. Temps right around 80 degrees, low humidity...just a wonderful day for a range trip.

All ammo was loaded with Starline brass, Berry's 71gr plated RN, and seated to an overall length of 1.080" (which is well short of the original OAL - probably around 1.180" - 1.200"). Still, all rounds fed and ejected perfectly. They all shot to the sights. None had any signs of excessive pressure.

The original military specifications for the cartridge are an 85 grain bullet at 1120 fps. My 71gr bullets are considerably lighter, but still seem to shoot very close to the sights.

First up, 4.8 grains of Power Pistol. They were..."intense". More recoil than the other two, and the muzzle flash and blast typically associated with Power Pistol were well represented. They chronographed 1221 fps with an SD of 22.

Second, 3.8 grains of IMR Green. I've been playing around a lot with this powder recently, for which no pistol load data exists. In a cartridge for which no data at all exists. But after working with it in 9mm, .32 ACP, and .45 ACP I felt I had enough data points to extrapolate something reasonable. These loads chronographed at 1134 fps with an SD of 15. No muzzle flash, considerably less recoil and blast than the Power Pistol.

Lastly, 3.5 grains of TiteGroup. These clocked at 1180 fps with an SD of 16. The IMR Green and the TiteGroup shot very similarly, but I have to say I liked this load best. This is what I will go into "production" mode with. Recoil was flat and mild, with just a little bit of muzzle flash.

I know I've said it before, but this pistol is just a joy to shoot. It's so svelte, it feels like an 80% scale gun. The recoil impulse is truly barely more than a .22LR. It sits very low in the hand and has nearly no muzzle rise. Yet, it certainly packs more wallop on the gongs than you'd expect. Much like it's larger Swiss cousin (Sig P210) it shoots like a laser beam.

The only downside at the range is the beavertail, which is small and sharp, it really rubs fleshy area between my trigger finger and my thumb raw. A piece of tape or band-aid beforehand would alleviate that though, and it may not even be an issue for you.
source https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/7-65 ... 42-500447/


I see, I am going to use my special order CH4D .32 French long dies, and my RCBS 7.62 special order .32 FL shell holder( discontinued shell holder that fits the Starline brass perfect) and the military OAL of 1.190-1.191. I will use the military powder and bullet from the old pulled cases. That should do me since I have at least 400-500 possibly 900? Although I do not know where the rest is ???
Well I am using a set of Lee dies in 7.65 French Long. The (kits Lee) shell holder is the standard one that came with the dies and has worked fine. I use one round taken out of the box at random and set the (military OAL) seating. Then I pulled the rounds and used them in the Starline brass. But the first thing I did was to run each case through the sizer and then set in a primer. Once that was done I just pulled a round and transferred over the powder and bullet. I have not had any of the pulled bullets with a lead overflow as the ones you show. All have been like the one laying on its side.
Then just for Shi & giggles I am going to load some pulled Polish garbage Tokarev bullets from split cases and use the .307 to .308 tips with Beliveau's & Swihartmark' suggestion of 3.5 grains of Unique powder with a much shorter OAL say ten at 1.120 and then another 10 at 1.150. Beliveau likes it short at 1.110 and Swihartmark is thinking about 1.125. Others (Mace) suggest a 3.2 -3.4 grain load for an 85 grain Tokarev bullet. Beliveau used a 90 grain bullet and Swihartmark I think used a molded bullet on the light side 81 gr??? Swihartmark wants to go to a heavier bullet in his next batch.


More info Unique powder:
I have loaded several 7.65 French Long rounds with Unique powder and 86 grain .308 diameter jacketed round nose bullets. As very little data is available, here is what I have found to work in my pistol. I do not have a chronograph so these rounds were fired for function and reasonable accuracy:
3.1 grs Unique, std primer, 86 gr Sierra, weak, would not cycle 1935A slide
3.5 grs Unique, std primer, 86 gr JRN, mild, good function, 2" @ 15' group
3.6 grs Unique, std primer, 86 gr JRN, mild, 2" @ 15' group
3.7 grs Unique, std primer, 86 gr JRN, mid-range, 2" group @ 15'
3.5 grs Unique, SP Mag primer, 86 gr JRN, mild to mid load, 2" @ 15' group
NO OAL listed
source https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/thread ... ded.67406/
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

I sent RCBS a note that they should reissue the .32 French long special shell holder that Midway sold because it fits the Starline brass so well. WE shall see the reply?
This shell holder :arrow: :dance: :clap: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012260416?pid=921353



Here is the 23 Jan 2020 reply from RCBS:
At this time, we have a small stock of this shell holder in special order. It can be ordered under part number 57170 for $23.95. They can only be ordered direct by calling the toll free line. If you wish to place an order, let the agent that answers the phone know we have checked stock on this special order item and it is available. We accept Visa and MC. Thanks for contacting RCBS.

Dora Paul | Customer Service Lead
RCBS| Weaver | Champion
605 Oro Dam Blvd, East, Oroville, CA 95965
Office: (530) 538 2623
Toll Free (800) 533 5000
so the total with shipping around 7.80 + tax came to $32.70 for 1 shell holder :doh: :doh:
If you want one, only a few are in stock.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by Superbug1 »

7.65 French Longue ammo is now being manufactured. The company is Steinel. I've purchased some but have yet to receive it. Here is a linkhttps://www.steinelammo.com/product/7-65-french ... -50-count/

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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by SWIHARTMARK »

Ummh, that was one amazing first post. Well, done since nobody has found that before.

Best Regards,

Mark

72 usmc
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

I agree, :clap: :shifty: WELCOME TO THE FORUM.
This new ammo might be nice, but it has a 110 grain 30 cal. bullet where the military ammo is a 77 grain bullet at .309. It must be some common production 30 cal bullet like Hornady .308, 110 grain or Berrys 110 grain. No one knows. But Starline brass is 23 cent a case and the new loads from Steinel in Ohio are approximately 50 cents per round. Shipping for one box of 50 priced at $26 is $10.99 to WI for one box. But get this, at 10 boxes it is still 10.99 shipping. Anything over $250 is free shipping. So postage is not really a factor. Not a bad deal if it shoots on target with such a heavy bullet.

7.65 French Longue ammo is now being manufactured. The company is Steinel. I've purchased some but have yet to receive it.
Superbug 1 when you get a box, could you tell us/measure the diameter of the bullet: is it .308 or .309inch or larger. Please, Second can you tell us the OAL of the Steinel .32 French longs in your box? This would help. Reviewers says it cycles, no jams, but do not mention if it hits point of aim or drops due to 110 grain bullet. I wonder how stout it is and if it could beat a pistol to death. If it's OK, it sounds more than fair for the price: figure 23 cents for a case and 12-16 cents more for a primer, powder, and bullet, you are at approximately 35-40cents to reload depending on bullet and powder costs. So for 10 -15 cents more you got factory ammo and save the brass for a second reload. :dance: :dance:
Thanks Superbug 1, we await your report and measurements.
Description
Manufacturer: Steinel Ammunition Co.
Condition: New
Bullet Weight: 110gr
Bullet Type: Plated Round Nose
Casing: Brass- Starline “7.65 FL” Headstamp
Quantity: 50
Caliber: 7.65 French Long/32 French Long
Primer Type: Boxer
Muzzle Vel: 1,000 FPS
Corrosive: No
Last edited by 72 usmc on Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by SWIHARTMARK »

Where in Ohio?

Best Regards,

Mark

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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Where in Ohio?
Mark most info is on the web page except what components they utilize to load the ammo up. I am tempted to order 5 boxes??? It depends on how hot it is and the OAL. Near Cleveland , SE a wee bit, pretty far from Dayton. But maybe a gun show with some local boys will have Ohio ammo products and offer it. They must be new, but they also have military load 38/200 for the .38 Webley. Also Japanese pistol ammo and Largo 9mm. Look under handgun vintage military ammo.
https://www.steinelammo.com/handgun-amm ... mmunition/


Steinel Ammunition, Inc.
2067 Midway Dr.
Twinsburg, OH 44087
United States of America
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72 usmc
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Here is the old post about Starline Brass for any looking for it: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... =67&t=3566
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by SWIHARTMARK »

7.65mm French is well above the local gun show crowd around here. Maybe an expensive to attend collectors show with expensive prices...maybe. Disdain for all things French is rampant here.

Best Regards

Mark

BTW, I did see that Grafs or Midway now carries the brass though.

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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

I contacted Steinel to find out actual bullet diameter and OAL of their .32 French long ammunition. I hope they are better than RCBS at getting back to people since I want to try 5 boxes of ammo.
Here is a Forgotten Weapons video of the French 1935 A & S shooting STEINEL AMMUNITION both slow & rapid fire, and no jams. It does not seem too hot. :dance: :clap:

This may be a winner at 26 bucks a box with Starline reloadable brass.
CHECK THIS OUT, You got to love French firearms:

Forgotten weapons, Comparison: French 1935A vs 1935S Pistols
https://youtu.be/aPHbnWZ6FeQ

Here is the old stuff that worked in some pistols and not in others due to different cuts to the brass and the type of brass utilized to convert to .32 French Long. It depended on the set up and whom did it. Examples shown are Buffalo, Reeds and some dead primer original military steel rounds.
Forgotten Weapons, Testing 7.65mm French Long Ammo (Reed's and Buffalo Arms)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOR_kdYEcz8

:idea: Now you see why Starline brass and Steinel ammunition is a great improvement for owners of .32 French long pistols. How many times have members asked Prvi to produce this ammunition. Well, Mr. Steinel had the brains and balls to produce it at a reasonable price. YA Hoo
I hope they get back to me on the specifications. All 14 reviews said it functions and the video also shows no jams. It seems to fire at point of AIM.
And for the record, a few years back, SWIHARTMARK was the only machinest that cut an exact, nuts-on, .32 french long conversion, brass case that actually worked. He is off the hook, because the Starline cases do work as well as his. It takes a good amount of time to machine each case. Now with Steinel making working .32 French long, watch the value of those French pistols go sky high. And after 30 years we can blast away at only 26 bucks a box.

I am waiting for the Steinel company reply and Superbugs 1 reply. Hats off to Superbug1 for letting the readers know about the Steinel ammunition and the Forgotten Weapons video.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

The old way, playing with .32 french long.



2014 Video , He uses Hornady XTP .309 .30cal 90 grain bullets
Mike Beliveau Load development and shooting the 32 French Long cartridge Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bt-6Ijhphw

Mike Beliveau Load development and shooting the 32 French Long cartridge Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrerq-TaHr0

His powder chart
Screen Shot 2020-06-12 at 9.02.17 AM.png
Last edited by 72 usmc on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by Superbug1 »

The OAL is 1.185. The cosmetic appearance of the Steinel ammo is as good as I've ever seen. The test comes tomorrow when I shoot a little at the range. Bear Creek Supply has also provided some 30 cal, 86gr RN, .309" bullets which I believe will do the trick. I am currently limited to .32 auto LEE dies but I have custom .32 French Longue dies on order. The Starline brass is right on the money and I have a couple hundred primed without widening the brass at all so far. It seems the future of my SACM 1935-A is bright. At least I hope so. I've owned several of these pistols and 30 years ago the ammo shortage was bleak with no end in sight. People are finally starting to pay attention to the little pistol that so inspired the SIG P210. It's about time. There is a book written on the 1935 pistols called "The French 1935 Pistols" by Eugene Medlin and Colin Doane, first published in 1991, I think. It provides a treasure of information on the A and the lesser appreciated S. I highly recommend this book. It is full of wonderful and detailed information.

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Re: 7.65 French Long.

Post by 72 usmc »

Thank you Superbug 1, could you please also get me a size diameter of the FMJ bullet at the bottom of the bullet near the the brass edge as best as you can. Is it .308 or .309 inch? The video said they are 30 cal carbine bullets, so I figure it's .308 inch, but it would be neat if they are actually .309 or larger.

I figure with 14 reviews and two more individual pistols on the video, a total of (16) fired the Steinel cartridges without any Jams. Better than the Old Wester Scrounger, Buffalo, or Reeds converted cartridges that functions on some pistols and not others. I bet it will fire fine. My question since you have fired these in the past, consider if you think the Steinel ammunition is too hot compared to military French ammo or any other brand you may have fired. From the video, it seems normal to me and I really like the rapid fire trial and no jams- it's got to be some great ammo if it works in 16 different pistols with 16 different extractors and varied age to their spring tension, and all the pistols still fired.
Please let us know how your pistol worked and if you could get a quick measurement for the record . I like the OAL of 1.185 inch

The Primary Reference, "The French 1935 Pistols: a concise history" 1995 by Eugene Medlin and Colin Doane is out of print and somewhat hard to find, but used copies sell around $45-65. It is a winner and even in paperback its worth the cost. I also recommend owning it. Few libraries carry it on the shelf because it was paperback.
Check Abe Books book search (for more academic/reference related books) or possible Amazon: https://www.abebooks.com/?&cm_mmc=ggl-_ ... gLqlvD_BwE
Screen Shot 2020-01-23 at 10.09.43 AM.png
as of today Abe has two used copies at approximately $50+ or -

Some more information on the pistols:
https://www.guns.com/news/review/histor ... 5mm-longue
https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/F1935S/f1935s.html
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display. ... ticles=319
Last edited by 72 usmc on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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