Well, the board is either fixed, or it's going to run terribly. Cross your fingers and hope for the best. I'm at my technical limit right now.

7.65mm French Long Load

Les Révolvers et Pistolets de Militaires Français, Mle.1873, 1892, 1935, Unique, Ruby, et alia
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SWIHARTMARK
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7.65mm French Long Load

#1 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:16 pm

I managed to get 3 rounds off in my M1935A with some 32 S&W long cases I made into 7.65mm French long before the gun jammed. Here is what I found out so far.

1) The empty unfired cases, the empty fired cases, and the loaded cases all have the same out side diameter from back to rear.

2) All cases above do fit the ejector in the slide.

3) All empty cases seem to fit the chamber just fine.

4) Loaded cases don't seem to go all the way down in the chamber and get caught up on the bullet's diameter.

I am using a sized .311" 100 grain lead bullet with the round's overall length to be 1.198", which is spec. I see the spec calls for a 85 grain lead bullet, but there is no way I can achieve a 1.198 over all length of the round using them.

If anybody has any loaded old French ammo, I would appreciate any over all length measurements you can give me. Also, if you know what bullet was used with surplus ammo, that would help too. I think I got the cases right, I just need to find the right bullet and length. I did use 3.2-3.3 grains of Unique powder.

Best Regards,

Mark

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Re: 7.65mm French Long Load

#2 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:47 pm

I sent a long reply 45 min of typing, but the forum kicked me out and said to sign in and then all was lost. I just about shot the screen. So real fast here is some data from my 300 pages of old print out forum posts and my notes mostly from pre 2012. Mike Venturino in Shooting WW II Small Arms 2014 p 256 list AOL as 1.194 but he is using hard lead cast bullets from RCBS mold 32-84 RN a 81 grain lead bullet.

garra
Post subject: Re: French M1935A PistolPostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:49 am
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Garra did a lot of work on these a few years back
I used 3.1 gn Unique with an AOL of 1.137.
he used a lee mold because the Sierra bullets in .308 were too small in actual size measuring something like .306 so he used a "Lee mold in .311 RN 100 gn weight".
AGAIN
by garra » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:45 pm

On the load I used with the Lee cast bullets. (.311) 3.1 gn Unique, 100 gn bullet with an OAL of 1.137"
From an old gunboards post in 2012 the AOL is listed as 1.198 for Sierra .308 85 grain SPRN bullets, then they state OAL was reduced for 93 grain bullets to 1.110 AOL

On line specs for 7.62x 20mm longue is 1.191 form a 2009 print out in my notes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65×20mm_Longue

Buffalo Arms ammo from 2009 uses 85 grain Sierra RN soft point jacketed bullet with a kind of flat lead nose, item SIE 8005. This loaded ammo is their stuff and measures short at OAL of 1.166 to 1.168. Both boxes are approximately the same OAL.

Old Western Scrounger 2011 ammo still new in the box with a yellow tag uses a 93 grain FMJ and varies in OAL from 1.099 to 1.100. No idea of whos brand bullet at 93 grains.

Now the steel case military ammo. I measured about 3 of each year and it comes out all over the place:
AS 1947 1.191 OAL
JA 1945 1.193 OAL
AT 1947 1.186 OAL
A ? 1946 1.198 OAL
VE FY 1951 1.191 OAL

So that is a wide range. None of the steel case original ammo has good primers- they are all dead. When pulled powder looks different in different years-like they used different stuff as needed. The brass from Buff. and OWS cut cases fire, but jam due to uneven odd cuts in the way the brass was cut. It is not as uniform as the factory military steel case ammo. I would say poor machining of the converted brass and each companies cut looks different, as well as batches from the same company. This is seen in the base diameter cut, rim thickness, and the side angle cut. It varies with different batches, hence no consistency like the steel factory ammo. They also use different brands of brass cases. Too many factors at play in the making of the .32 long brass cases. A tricky pistol to load for. This is a quick reply. I hope to get more data after I sort through 500 rounds of that dead military ammo.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 6 times in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: 7.65mm French Long Load

#3 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:54 pm

A great book on the firearms and shooting them as well as reloading for WW II pistols and rifles is Shooting World War Small Arms by Mike Venturino 2014. It is published by Wolfe Publishing Company Prescott AZ. New is $54
Reloading French Longue is covered on pages 255- 257. Hand guns from pages 191- 216 Reloading all sorts of WW II cartridges is covered on pages 243-281.

available at
review http://www.classicarmsjournal.com/book- ... mall-arms/


https://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog/d ... uctid=1885
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: 7.65mm French Long Load

#4 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:01 pm

more info is within this old post and its listed sources:
http://www.ncgunowners.com/forum/showth ... p?tid=9665
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: 7.65mm French Long Load

#5 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:05 pm

Remember, Even Buffalo states its ammo may not function in all pistols. I think it's the extractor and recoil spring oddities. Their brass cases all fire, but due to uneven cuts, different brass brands and rim thickness, as well as wrong angles cut into the sides, some of my pistols like the Buffalo, others like OWS ammo. Each pistol has an extractor personality that seems to handle odd /uneven/ incorrect cut brass differently. I have never had problems with original ammo, but that was with 2 out of 5o that may actually go off. I have never found a batch of original .32 French long in steel cases dated past 1965, and French primers go dead after 30 years. So I never had 2 shots in a row with original ammo. One of my pistols loves OWS, but jams on Buffalo ammo. The other loves Buffalo , but it bottle necks on OWS. Go figure. I would get a box of original French .32 long ammo for a sample. Fit it into the barrel as a gauge. Then fit your cartridges and see what you get. Go shorter on your OAL with that brass. It sounds like your care in cutting the brass is fine. Pre fit the bullet/cartridge into the barrel and see how they fit and mess around with a correct lenght for that pistol. Then go shorter so they work in most pistols.
Too bad Prvi does not like to make money. They would sell a ton of .32 French long if they made uniform correct brass ammo for this pistol. Overnight a $200 pistol would be $600. The joke is some at gun shows ask $400 :doh: for a pistol you can hang on the wall :lol:

Also Springfield Sporters has about 10,000 spare 1935 A ans S magazines so pick up some spares to be sure the mag spring is strong. Ruby also.

see http://www.ssporters.com/category-s/172.htm


see http://www.ssporters.com/product-p/1798-2.htm
http://www.ssporters.com/product-p/1799-3.htm
You would never have enough ammo to fill them :lol: :roll:
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: 7.65mm French Long Load

#6 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:44 pm

I do have some .313 85 grain cast bullets I could size down to .311" and shove into the case well below 1.198 to more like 1.100. The cases seemed to fit the extractor and chamber just fine. I would guess my bullet just sticks out too far. 15 more grains of lead made the bullet far longer than I thought. I hope to have this problem solved in two weeks. I might try some FMJ TOK bullets as suggested.

Man, those cases fit well on the ejector and in the chamber, argh, growl, argh.

Hopefully, I'll have a lathe up and running in the garage in the spring and make more cases. So far, all the reloading stuff I designed myself has worked fine. Very encouraging, very encouraging.

Best Regards,

Mark

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Re: 7.65mm French Long Load

#7 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:51 pm

I just checked out the magazines at Springfield Sporters. Have any Unique magazines? Oops, did I mention I have one of those too. As I call them, the French made Ruby.

Man, I think I'm real close on making the cases and ammo that works for these pistols. I'm lucky I learned to make my own HHS tooling back in the day. Now that I can take down my M1935A, I can check all the cases to see if they fit the ejector. Its a tight fit, but I can see why one got jammed not going in all the way. I now see the proper clearance and the construction of the chamber.

Best Regards,

Mark

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Re: 7.65mm French Long Load

#8 Post by SWIHARTMARK » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:49 pm

I just pushed the bullets deeper into their cases and now they all fit the chamber. It appears that the case rests on a shoulder inside the chamber, so case length seems to be critical, not overall length. At least, that is how I see it when I put the bullets into the chamber with me just holding the barrel and doing it manually. Also, the ejector groove I cut into the 32 S&W long fits snuggly into the slide. I can see why the wider rims on 32 ACP would damage the ejector now. Man, things you learn when you get to see inside where all the parts and components mash up and fit.

Since I am due to see OSU attempt to defeat the Badgers of Wisconsin this Saturday, I will attempt to shoot the M1935A around December 9th, weather permitting. I'll be seated all the way up top at the fifty yard line if you want to see me on TV. I'll be wearing the #5 OSU jersey.

Best Regards,

Mark

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Re: 7.65mm French Long Load

#9 Post by butcharoot » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:39 am

Huntington Die and Midway both carry Bertram brass. I have yet to reload the Buffalo Arms brass I got. Butch

http://www.huntingtons.com/store/produc ... 473&page=1
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/58340 ... dc_id=eBay

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Re: 7.65mm French Long Load

#10 Post by 72 usmc » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:57 pm

Butcharoot, Could you please post some micro close up views of the rim and side cuts on this Bertram brass? Thickness of rim, angle cut, and how well the rim is cut milled? I would like to see the neatness of the machining on the brass.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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