http://www.scoutscopes.comhttp://www.mojosights.comhttp://smith-sights.com

It is currently Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:44 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:20 pm 
Offline
Mil-Surp Collector
Mil-Surp Collector

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:30 pm
Posts: 391
Location: Minden, Nevada
Age: 57
:thumb: Wow! A wealth of information!
Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:54 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
Glad to share. :)

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:48 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
A bit more info about the Roth plant from JJE over at IAA:

"After WW1, the formerly Austrian city of Pressburg became part of the newly-formed Czechoslovakia and was renamed Bratislava. As a result, Georg Roth's plant there became "Czechified" under the name "Jiri Roth" (Jiri being the Czech for Georg). It used the "JR" monogram on its headstamps and also as its mark on clips and chargers.

In 1928, following the final collapse of the Georg Roth firm, J Roth came under new ownership and was known as the "Cescoslovenske Munieni a Kovodelne Zavody" (Czech Munitions and Engineering Company). At first they used the "M-in-circle" mark on headstamps and chargers, but by 1932 the style had changed to the "M-in-part-circle" mark, with the bottom of the circle open beneath the M.

However, the Czech arms firm Zbrojovka Brno was seeking to improve its competitiveness by entering the ammunition market and sought to take over the Bratislava plant, claiming among other things that Bratislava was too close to the border with Austria to be a secure site for ammunition production. In 1934 ZB finally gained control of the firm and moved production to its new plant at Povaszka Bystrica, introducing "Z" as its mark on headstamps and chargers."

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:25 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
OK, so I went to check something on the site and saw that pretty much all of my image links were gone!

Many of those were from old Imageshack accounts so it stands to reason that they wouldn't still be kept after all these years.

They're now uploaded to Google Sites, so they should be good to go from now on and not disappear.

Sorry about that!

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:12 am 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
So, revisited some old forum threads and realized that I had left out a marking. It's an X within a circle.

At first it was thought to be a misstruck H but two examples were found so it's been added to the list. Unfortunately I have no clue who made it as of yet.

All I have to go on right now is a conversation between KH and I on gunboards, so I'll post that here, but looks like it's time for research.

Quote:
Could be Hembrug, as there are some clips for the Mosin-Nagants, marked with "X in circle".

No idea about the X in a circle, unless it's actually a stylized H...but it certainly seems to be an X.

The X on the Russian ones could be the same X they marked captured weapons with.

The two arsenals I found for the Hembrug are Artillerie Inrichtingen Hembrug and Werkplaatsen voor Draagbare Wapenen. Inrichtingen used A or AI on headstamps & WDW stamped WDW on their guns...


Quote:
Ok, found another reference to the X marking here:
http://www.bordingl.com/zfondelli.htm

Which shows it could be from a Hembrug plant. Another possibility is the Vsentin Plant, Czechoslovakia, but I have no more information about the Czech plant than that right there.

So, a few straws to grasp at, but no good leads so far I'm afraid. ^_^


I have got some informations on the Russian "X" clip, when I bought it, including the dates, when those ammo and clips were made (1904/05). But I do not find them in the moment.

I looked for Hembrug/Zaandam in the net also and found several pages. It is the Artillerie Inrichtingen.


Used the wayback machine and found a snapshot of that site, turns out it's just a listing of headstamps and the X for Hembrug translates to: "X (year + 2 digits)".


--Update--

Found out that a company called Fischer & Rossmann in Berlin used an X for their M.88 clips. No idea who they were or what the marking looked like to tell if it's the same. Did see a Dutch M.95 clip with an X on it, but it looked more like it was scratched/stamped in later rather than professionally done at a plant.

--Update 2--
Found images of the F&R M.98 clip. The X on both looks danged similar. Seeing if anyone at the IAA forums can shed some light on this.

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:46 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
More than one site has a listing of M.88 clip manufacturers that states that an X was used by Frister & Rossman. I compared the images of the X marked M.95 clip with the image of an M.88 clip found at https://forum.ioh.pl/viewtopic.php?p=401947, and they look identical (or at least really close).

This site has a bunch of info about F&R and it's founders, but other than sewing machines it only briefly mentions bayonets during WWI: http://www.sewalot.com/frister_rossmann.htm.

Thus, between the images, lists, and company info, it sure seems as if F&R made Steyr clips as well. In the absence of contradictory evidence, I'm declaring the X in circle to be a Frister & Rossman made clip!

I've updated the site to reflect the X in circle marking being from F&R.

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:03 am 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
Some more info/ramblings about the LP markings (La Precisa):

http://www.il91.it/il91.html

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.il91.it%2Fil91.html&edit-text=&act=url

LP clips were made by The Precise, Teano Scalo. Teano Scalo is a hamlet in Teano, which is in the province of Caserta in the Campania region. I also found this article:

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=it&u=http://www.paesenews.it/%3Fp%3D44432&usg=ALkJrhjd5Arm1TRS7w2NksqK4K17iGwjVA

It talks about a shed explosion at the La Precisa munitions factory on September 11, 1964. Another article:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.ilmessaggioteano.it/articolo.asp%3Fid%3D503&prev=search

talks about all the asbestos left over from the former bomb manufacturing facility. Yet another article talks about the asbestos from where hand grenades were made.

At the same time I can't discount DocAV's statement of:

Quote:
"La Precisa": A company in the industrial area south of Naples, which in the 1930s made Table radios, Household Kitchen ( electric) Utensils, and associated small stamped metal parts. The Radios are now a sought after collector's item.
"La Precisa" is a descriptive term, meaning "The precise one" when referring to its products, ie, made with careful precision.

LP made both 8mm Mannlicher Clips, and 6,5 Carcano clips; it is unknown if they made any 8mm Lebel (Berthier 3 round) Clips, although substantial quantities of Berthiers had been left over from WW I French aid after 1917.
(They were still on sale by Terni Army factory to collectors in the late 1990s)

Any modern (Google) search for "La Precisa" will bring up a Post world War II company, in the north-central area of Italy, completely unrelated to the original LP ( but involved with precision engineering; just not Household items).

Just an expansion of the LP entry.

regards,
Doc AV


After all, he's been researching this stuff longer than I have.

For my LP entry I have either Lazio or Naples. Lazio is about 2 hours NW of Teano, and Teano is about an hour NNW of Naples.

Could Teano be the actual location of the LP clips? Unfortunately, I still don't know for sure. I've contacted DocAV to get his opinion on the matter.

Still no idea who made the GH clips, I'm afraid. :(

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:05 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
So, I contact Moetz (author of books on Austrian cartridges) and the guy that runs hungariae.com. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find out anything more about the location the Russian clips were made or anything about the GH clips.

I'm starting to think I've been looking in the wrong direction as far as the GH goes. There are also 9.5 Dutch/Romanian Mannlicher clips with the same marking on them. Perhaps GH is from the Netherlands?

No idea. :(

I did find that there was a G.H. Osang in Dresden that made Prussian and Nazi belt buckles, Nazi medals/badges, and at least the trim on some WWI helmets. One site it selling a sword supposedly made by Osang from the 19th century. I'm not finding out any more information on him (likely to be a company rather than an individual, at least in later years). I don't think this is the clip maker, as a) if it were that easy we'd likely already know by now and b) it would be weird for him to make 6.5 clips, I would think and c) Even though there's not a lot of room on clips I would think he would use GHO or something like that.

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 12:39 am 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
Something I've been wondering about.....


We know that contract/captured M95 rifles were used by a lot of folks. Poland, Albania, even Finland, yet the only clips found so far are German, Austrian, Italian and Russian. Did other countries make clips also? Maybe they either received enough in contract/capture or just didn't use too many of the rifles? Both?

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 10:26 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
Well, I did it. I finally bit the bullet and bought the Austrian Military Cartridges books from Moetz on CD. The disc is on it's way now. Hopefully I'll be able to finally narrow down the GH marking or at least learn a bit more about the rounds themselves.

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:42 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
Moetz CD arrived today. So far I haven't found anything particularly new, except for this:

Quote:
In 1940 and 1941, a few lots of ball cartridges were made in 8 x 50 R (with CN plated bullets) and in 8 x 56 R
M.30 S. APT cartridges were also made in 8 x 56R M.30 S with the usual German markings for this load; red primer
annulus and black bullet tip. Both calibers had German-style headstamps but we do not know how these rifle
cartridges were packed. However, there are Mannlicher clips existing with the markings „am 40“ and „am 41“.


I've never seen an am41 clip. Will make a note about it on the page though, and it does at least confirm that the 40 is the year.

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:58 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
So some possible leads on the GH marked clip.

I contacted the National Military Archives of Austria and the National Archives of Hungary. Haven't heard back from Austria yet, but a gentleman at the Hungarian Archives directed me to a military school, a museum and the Budapest Archives. I haven't heard anything back from them yet but hopefully some day!

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:13 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
Heard back from the Austrian Archives today. Unfortunately they couldn't find anything on the GH marked clip. They suggested that maybe it's a heretofore unknown mark for Haenel, but that was just a guess.

Oh well, it's still pretty cool to have a scanned letter from the director of the Ostereiche Staatsarkiv. :)

I've also emailed the German State Military Archives. Maybe I'll have some luck there.

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:20 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
Well, no luck so far. Even wrote the Czech Republic and Bulgaria.

However, the Hungarians and Czechs directed me to some other sources that might be able to help, and I'm waiting to hear back from Bulgaria and Germany, so there's hope!

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:10 pm 
Offline
Benefactor
Benefactor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:16 am
Posts: 5429
Location: Midlands of SC
Age: 37
Well I'll be a simian's close relative.

When it comes to the unmarked Russian clips, I've basically had the answer close at hand the whole time, or at least as close as I think we're ever going to get to the answer.

Treshkin at IAA let me use his image of the unmarked Russian clips (thanks!), and in the same post stated that the unmarked 8x50R cartridges were from the St. Petersburg ammunition plant. In addition, over at 7.62x54R.net it states:

Quote:
Petersburg, established in 1869, equipment moved to establish Simbirsk and Podolsk plants in 1918/19 (Return to Top) Year at 12 o'clock, Cyrillic P (Petersburg) at 9 o'clock, Tri-mester of year at 6 o'clock, Letter code for brass supplier at 3 o'clock; P moved to 6 o'clock and brass supplier code dropped in 1914; Cartridges from 1900/10s without designation thought to be from Petersburg.


Russia was already fighting in August, 1914, though they hadn't officially declared war yet.

The St. Petersburg plant was in operation until the Russian Civil War (it had become Petrograd by then) and according to Barnaul, the ammunition plant was moved to Podolsk (near Moscow) as the Germans got closer, which would have been somewhere around the end of 1917 and the beginning of 1918. Not sure when they moved the equipment. Barnaul states that at the beginning of World War II, "cartridge production was transferred from Podolsk, Lugansk and Moscow to Barnaul".

Thus, while I have no definitive proof, I find it highly likely that the unmarked Russian clips were made by the same St. Petersburg plant that made the unmarked 8X50R ammunition and unmarked 7.62x54R ammunition. It just makes sense given the time frame, the area, lack of other facilities (the Kirov plant was in existence, but AFAIK they specialized in railway equipment and artillery at that time), and the manufacture of unmarked ammunition for them to have made the clips as well.

So, it may be a bit tentative, but I'm going to declare that the unmarked Russian clips were manufactured at the St. Petersburg ammunition plant.

_________________
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
FAIR USE NOTICE: This site may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been pre-authorized by the copyright owner. Such material is made available to advance understanding of political, economic, scientific, social, art, media, and cultural issues. The 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material that may exist on this site is provided for under U.S. Copyright Law. In accordance with U.S. Code Title 17, Section 107, material on this site is distributed without profit to persons interested in such information for research and educational purposes. If you want to use any copyrighted material that may exist on this site for purposes that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.