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 Post subject: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:45 pm 
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The latest version of the list can be found here:

https://sites.google.com/site/steyrclips/

Any new information, even speculative, can be found on this thread along with previous discussions. The last page of the thread and the list will contain the latest information.

BEGIN THREAD-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's additional information in the thread below not found on the list.
Feel free (please do!) to post any information/question/pictures of m90 & m95 clips.


Zeliard

Steyr M90 & M95 En-Bloc Clip Markings

These are notes I've made regarding the markings found on the clips used for the Steyr M90 & M95, with the assistance of The Hebrew Hammer, Procrastinator43, 1886Lebel, Rapidrob, & other members at the Surplus Rifle forums ( http://www.surplusrifleforum.com ), Doc AV, Nick, Enfield56, Valo62 & other members over at Parallax Bill's straight pull forums (http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsfo ... armsforums), Nick, Doc AV, Enfield56, KH, Alb87, jaz5833, Valo62 &, AndyB & Jerry in MI over at Gunboards.com (http://forums.gunboards.com), Valo62 over at Yesterday's Weapons M95 forum (http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB2/index.php) and PButler over at The International Ammunition Association's Cartridge Collector Forums (http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum). Their assistance is greatly appreciated.

Confirmed

Eagle & swastika: Gustloff-Werke, Otto Eberhardt-Patronenfabrik. Hirtenberg, Niederdonau, Austria. Formerly Hirtenberger Patronen Züundhütchen & Metallwarenfabrik A.G until 1938.

1 headed Austrian eagle with shield (First Republic symbol, '19-34): Wollersdorf Patronenfabrik, Vienna, Austria.


2 headed Austrian eagle with shield (Federal State of Austria, '34-38): Hirtenberger Patronen Züundhütchen & Metallwarenfabrik A.G.

A or A over H with diacritic (accent mark): Allami Hadianyaggyar (state factory), Budapest, Hungary. Formerly a private, Jewish firm until taken over by the state. Made to look like they'd come from Hirtenberger.

A or A over H: Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik, Austria.

GR inside circle: Georg Roth, Vienna, Austria.

ML or ML inside shield: Magyar Loszermuvek RT., Veszprem, Hungary, Manfred Weiss until 1932.

W or italicized W or W inside circle: Franz Weiss, Csepel (later Budapest), Hungary

H inside oval or circle: Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik, Austria.

KC inside circle: Keller & Co., Hirtenberg, Austria.

C over A: Sofia Artillery Arsenal, Sofia, Bulgaria.

R inside oval: Georg Roth. Unsure of plant location.

JR: Juraj Roth, Bratislava (German: Pressburg),Czechoslovakia. Juraj Roth is the Slovakian spelling of Georg Roth. The Bratislava Roth plant (Ceskoslovenske Municne a Kovorobne Zavody) changed from the GR marking to the JR marking in 1922. Marking changed to M inside circle marking in '28 or '29. Marking changed to second style of M inside circle in 1931. Bought by BRNO in '34 and moved to Považská Bystrica, where the marking changed yet again to a Z.

SF inside shield or SF inside circle: Société Française des Munitions, (Gévelot S. A.), Place Jules Gévelot, 92310 Issy-Les-Moulineaux, France. Later absorbed into the Nationalised French Ordnance combine GIAT (Groupe Industriel Armaments du Terre---Industrial Group for Land Armaments) in the 1970s. Made under contract to Bulgaria (1903-1904) & possibly to Italy for captured weaponry during WWI.

PA or PA inside circle or PA: Punitra Voina Societate Anonima Romana, Brasov, Romania.

RM: Rheinische Metallwaren-und Maschinenfabrik, Soemmerda, Germany.

RB: Cartoucherie Russo-Belge, Liège, Belgium

P inside circle: Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik, Austria.

M.8: Made by Hirtenberger for export to Italy.

AZF: Artillerie Zeug Fabrik, Vienna, Austria.

PK inside circle: Pocisk Munitions Works, Warsaw, Poland.

AM 40: Gustloff-Werke, Otto Eberhardt-Patronenfabrik (formerly Hirtenberger Patronen Züundhütchen & Metallwarenfabrik A.-G.), Hirtenberg, Niederdonau, Austria.

I: Gewehr und Munitionsfabrik, Spandau, Germany.

SB or SB in circle: Sellier & Bellot, Prague, Czechoslovakia.

C inside circle: Cornides & Cie., St. Veit/Triesting (Cornides & Company of St. Veit and Triesting), St. Viet & Triesting, Austria.

PM : Polte, Werke Magdeburg, Magdeburg, Germany.

M and circle, one unit (circle starts at end of the legs of the M):
Ceskoslovenske Municne a Kovorobne zavody, Slovakia. These stamps were found after 1931. In 1934 it was renamed to Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka , Brno, plant II, Povazska Bystrica. German military code DOU (Waffenwerke Bruenn AG, Werk Bystrica) and the marking became a Z.

M inside circle: same as "M and circle, one unit (circle starts at end of the legs of the M)" except these stamps were made before 1931.

Z: Zbrojovka Brno, Považská Bystrica, Czechoslovakia. Formerly the Juraj (Georg) Roth plant in Bratislava, Czechoslovakia, it was moved to Považská Bystrica after being bought by BRNO in 1934. No longer affiliated with Zbrojovka after 1946 it became the state run factory Povazske Strojarne in Považská Bystrica, Czechoslovakia. Stopped making ammo after the 60's.

MF: Pre-1938 code for Staats-Munitions Fabrik (State Munitions Factory) Woellersdorf, Austria. Absorbed by Gustloff Werke - Otto Patronenfabrik Eberhardt (Hirtenberger) in '38.

Known markings, unknown manufacturers

LP inside circle: La Precisa, Italy. Just means "The Precise ". Often associated with companies in Italy that were involved with some sort of precision work, typically metalworking. Could possibly be a company that later became "SIT-La Precisa" ( Societa Italiana Technomecchanica-La Precisa) of Padova (Padua). Could also stand for Stabilimento Pirotecnico dell' Esercito, Torino.

GH inside circle: Subcontractor for Kynoch, Britain. Unsure of the exact manufacturer, could be Geo. Hopkins & Co.

Unconfirmed
NOTE: Some of these are confirmed as headstamps but not as clip markings. Others are just plain unconfirmed

y: Jagdpatronen Zunhutchen un Metallwarenfabrik, Nagyteteny, Budapest, Hungary.

F-GY: Fegyverger Es Gepygar Raszvenytarsasag, Budapest, Hungary.

SMI: Società Metallurgica Italiana, Campo Tizzoro, Tuscany, Italy. At some point (when??) headstamps from this company became CT (Campo Tizzoro) but as of yet no clip markings with that stamp have been found. Could also stand for: Sudsteirische Metallindustrie GmbH, Austria.

B MF: Berndorfer Metallwarenfabrik, Berndorf, Austria.

E & C: Eisler & Company Patronenhülsen und Kapselfabrik, Vienna & Inzersdorf, Austria.

E & CW: Eisler & Company Patronenhülsen und Kapselfabrik, Vienna & Inzersdorf, Austria.

G & R: Greger & Rosam, Vienna, Austria.

R. Rosam, Vienna, Austria.

R: Caroline Rosmann, Vienna, Austria.

AG: Maschinen und Waggonbaufabrik A.G., Vienna, Austria.

SK: Séraphin Keller-Keller & Co., Séraphin (place? name?), Hirtenberg, Austria. Pre-Hirtenberg name.

K: Dr. Kubenick, Reichenberg, Bohemia (Czechoslovakia).



Unfortunately many of the documents about the Austro-Hungarian empire as well as Hungarian arms and manufacturers seem to have been either lost or destroyed, and a relatively small percentage of paperwork has been translated into English.

If you can be of any assistance in confirming/identifying these marks please post here or PM me. If you come across new markings let us know about those too. Thanks.



RedStarRacer

Thanks I just picked up 6 clips and all are like the ones you have listed but one is not. It is just a "H" inside an oval.


gman53

I have one with an H inside an oval also but another one is stamped RM. I also have two types of W, one straight block letter, one slanted.

Sorry about the crummy picture, closeups are still a challenge for me.


Zeliard

Thanks! I added those to the list under unknown.

I found a place that has two books on CD called Austrian Military Cartridges here, but it costs $25 euro. :/

They have the books as well, but volume 1 is sold out.


Zeliard

Hrrrm, looks like H could be either Hirtenberger or Rheinmetall....
Grabbed this from the international ammunition association's pages:
H Hirtenberger Patronen-, Zündhütchen-und Metallwarenfabrik A.-G., Hirtenberg, Niederdonau, Austria 1
H Rheinische Metallwaren und Maschinenfabrik, Dusseldorf, Germany 1

Nothing mentioned about an oval though.
That's one of the problems, is that the clip markings and head stamps aren't always the same. :/

-EDIT-
Ok, thanks to procrastinator from here and Doc AV on gunboards we've gathered some more info.

GR = Georg Roth, Vienna ( Factory became part of Hirtenberger after WW I)

Austrian double eagle: Patronenfabrik Wollersdorf ( also became part of Hirtenberger after WWI, but a separate factory..."P635" after 1938;

Nazi Eagle: mark applied to all Austrian produced ammo components by either Wollersdorf/Hirtenberger or Hirtenberger proper after 1938; Technically Austria was then part of "Nazi Germany" ("GrossDeutschland") but for collecting/ID purposes it is better to call them "Austrian" .

W= Franz Weiss Budapest,pre & post WWI, but before the use of "AH" (Honved mark) when supplied on Official Hungarian supplies. Weiss was expropriated in the early 1940s as he was Jewish.

I'll add this updated info to the list.


Rick

Very good interesting stuff for us Manlicher/M95 afficandos!

Lets pin this one up top.


Zeliard

W00t!
Got some more info from DOC AV over at the Parallax forums, I've updated the list above with it.


Furthermore, the "W" mark also referred to Wollersdorf factory outside Vienna for some years; as it was the Imperial factory, the Double headed eagle (imperial) was used for most of its production.

H in oval :Hirtenberger patronenfabrik.

The "Circle M" mark is on Bulgarian contract 8x50R ammo made at Bratislava, Czechoslovakia, by a factory which in 1936, became part of the CZ Brno combine, making ammo for export (in 1936, the headstamp became "Z"; before 1936, it was "CircleM".).


Some more information from DOC came in today:

There was an Italian Company (Martignoni, I think) that also made 8x50R during the 1930s for the Italian Colonial Forces; I don't know what their Clip marking was, but it probably included an "M" as well; their headstamp did.
So unless you have a packet (with an obvious label) then either way, I could not say whether the Czech factory used "M in Shield" on its clips, or if this is a Martignoni mark.
Check a Packet of martignoni shotshells to see if their trade mark is "M in shield"??



Unfortunately I can't find much of anything about this, except on municion.org, which showed the heastamps of a Martignoni shotshell as well as one by an Italian company called Maionchi. Maionchi seems to have become a distributor for heavy equipment, and Martignoni is now owned by NobelSports. I emailed Martignoni asking if they'd ever produced a stamp like that, especially for 1895 Steyr clips, so maybe they'll email me back with the info. I did find a picture of an older box of shotgun shells and they did use an M symbol, but these were well newer than WW1 or 2.


Hasso

I just finished shuffling through my clips and came up with two more codes: an S superimposed on a C, and a "KC" inside a circle. Sadly, my ability to post pics is highly limited just now...

Ideas?

-Hasso


Zeliard

Hrrm, not sure yet, but I'll ask around and do some digging.
I believe the KC stands for Keller & Co., Hirtenberg, Austria.

Gonna check with some more knowledgeable people and see if that can be confirmed.
A over C might be Vereinigte Deutsche Nickelwerke A.G., Schwerte/Ruhr, Westfalen, but not really sure about that yet.


Hasso

Zel;

I just learned never to type while that tired; it's an "A" over "C". Sorry!

-Hasso


Zeliard


Thanks once again go out to Doc AV over at Parallax's boards for this information:

"AC" is actually "CA" (Sofia Arsenal" in Bulgarian Cyrillic).
headstamp for most Bulgarian 8x50 cartridges through WW I.
Replaced by "B phi" (VF) for "Voinni Fabrika" ==War or Military factory.


Looked up some more info for this one since the company is still in business.
1878-1891: Artillery Arsenal of Rousse
1891-1924: Sofia Artillery Arsenal
1924-1948 State Military Factory, Kazanlak
1948-1960: Factory 10
1960-1977: United Industrial Plant Friedrich Engels
1977-1990: F. Engels Machine Building Plant
1990-Present: Arsenal, Ltd.


Credit goes to Stewie for identifying the R inside of an oval as a Roth emblem.[/i][/u]


Last edited by Zeliard on Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:08 pm, edited 62 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:34 pm 
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Great info - thanks for re-posting.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:28 am 
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No problem. Thanks go out to the mods that keep it stickied, and the people that have helped in the quest.
Maybe one day we can identify them all. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:44 am 
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*edit.... stewie forgot to check the list before being all excited that he "found a new one" * :oops:

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 Post subject: Another Repost
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:24 am 
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procrastinator43



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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking through my ammunition I noticed 5 different stamps on the back of the clips.



2 on the left have a C overlapping an R in a circle

2 in the center are different eagles

First on the right has a very heavily stamped W
Second is an LP in a circle

Any information on the various stamps?




Attachments:





Zeliard



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Posts: 3,938 12/31/05 at 12:43 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here ya go.

Hmm, a circle with LP inside of it, I don't believe that one's been documented yet.




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procrastinator43



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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the reply and the link to the other site.

Looks like the C overlapping the R is acutally a G.

Still have the LP in a circle to find.


Zeliard



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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've gotten some info from this site, will post a question about the LP markings as soon as they email me the account info, I forgot my password. ^_^

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procrastinator43



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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have to request password more often for some reason. Surely it cannot be that I am getting old!!


Zeliard



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Posts: 3,938 1/21/06 at 11:20 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok! after digging about I managed to find a bit more info, no idea if this is accurate or not but better than nothing:


Quote:
ML = Magyar Loszermuvek Rt. = a cartridge manufacturing company in Veszprem, Hungary
AH = Allami Hadianyaggyar = State Factory in Budapest (former Manfred Weiss, renamed in 1932) The stamp of Allami Hadianyaggyar is very similar to the one used by Hirtenberger when trying to hide its production from the Allied Arms Control Commision between the wars. The only difference is the diactric sign above the "A".


So..the stamp that looks like A over H may be either Hirtenberger or Allami Hadianyaggyar. There was a picture next to this information (grabbed it off gunboards) but the link was broken, so no pic. :/

Still no information about the PL mark, and apparently there's an SF mark out there also.

I found a website with information about the ammo headstamps, might be useful, but it's in Polish. ^_^
http://www.poszukiwania.pl/portal/modul ... le&sid=301

From what I can understand by running it through an online translator, Hirtenberger ammo has a slightly wider A over H with a single numeral for the date stamp, while the Hungarian ammo made to look like Hirtenberger has a small vertical dash above a slightly more narrow A over H and has a double digit date stamp. Later they did away with the asterik looking stars to the sides of the ammo. Of course, the marking on my clip is so worn it's really impossible to tell which, but at least now we know what we're looking at should we see any more of them.

The site also identifies the ML stamp as being from Magyar Loszermuvek RT Veszprem.

Also, if we see one stamped F-GY that stands for Fegyverger Es Gepygar Raszvenytarsasag, a plant in Budapest.

Found a cache of an Italian website that has Hungarian arms manufacturer's stamps on it, mostly modern but may be of use, lists the ML headstamp as being from the same place.

It also lists a Jagdpatronen Zunhutchen un Metallwarenfabrik, Nagyteteny, Budapest with a y as a headstamp, but no clue as to if that is correct or how modern that ammunition may be.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:16 pm 
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Found some new information.

From Municion.org I was able to find the name of the factory that produced the "Circle M" headstamp, they listed some ammo with that logo as "Povazske Strojarne, of Povazska Bystrica".

Thanks to Wikipedia I was able to find that Povazska Bystrica is a city in northwest Slovakia.

Quote:
In 1918, the town became part of the Czechoslovak republic. In 1929, an ammunition plant Roth transferred its production from Bratislava to Považská Bystrica, which significantly improved the employment situation.

Since the second world war, and especially in 70s and 80s, the city was growing significantly, new residential areas were built around the tiny city center. The city center itself was re-built completely, therefore you can hardly find any historical buildings there now. The main employer since the second world war was the engineering plant Považské strojárne. The plant was manufacturing especially scooters and industrial bearings. Since the end of socialism, the company is in a crisis which hurts the region and increases unemployment.


The German ww2 code for this plant was aym, which is listed everywhere as Povazske Strojarne, Narodny Podnin, Povazska-Bystrica.

On another site (http://www.jawamoped.com/html/history.html) I found the following information:

Quote:
Way back in 1928 a Slovak engineer with the name of Roth, who owned ammunition factories in Bratislava and Brno, founded a further ammunitions factory in the northern Slovak town of Povazska Bystrica under the name of Ceske Municne a Korodelne Zavody Brno, factory 2.


Using that info I found some information on a translated page:

Quote:
In the year 1928 a slowakischer engineer did 2 named Roth, which already possessed ammunition factories in Bratislava, with the CZ armament makers in Brno together and created further armament makers in the nordslowakischen city Povazska Bystrica under the name Ceske Municne A Korodelne Zavody Brno, factory.


Supposedly this plant also made Kriegsmodel K98s.

The Roth in this case would be Jiri Roth. I am unsure as of this time whether Jiri Roth was a relation of Georg Roth, or if Jiri is the slovakian spelling of Georg since findings conflict.

If this information is correct, then the Z headstamp mentioned above may well be a Roth ammo factory as well.

So, now we have a bit more info as to just what plant produced ammo and clips with this marking. I'd love to have more exact information but *shrugs*, better than nothing. :)

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 Post subject: 8 more, nothing new...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:31 pm 
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Just got a set of pouches with 8 clips from SARCO. 6 with eagle and swastika, one H in oval, one W, so no new ones this time, unfortunately.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:15 am 
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Updated this a bit, got some leads from Valo62 over at the Yesterday's Weapons forums. Still gotta track down locations, check if they were in business at the time, etc., just wanted to go ahead & get this posted while I had time. ^_^

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:40 pm 
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Hey, I've got some old slab sided ones...... they don't have any markings though :(

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:13 am 
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Aren't most of the slab sided ones bare anyways?

-UPDATE- Stamping confirmed! With the help of Velo62 of the Yesterday's Weapons forum and our very own 1886 Lebel it has been confirmed that the SF inside of a shield stamp belongs to Société Française des Munitions. List has been updated & there's a bit more info on it there. Also performed a long-overdue rearranging & categorizing. One entry was in the wrong section even, oops! :oops:

One of these days I may even get around to alphabetically ordering them. :)

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What is the meaning of the hash marks on the left clip?
Image


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:25 pm 
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Hmm, that's odd. I haven't seen those before!
Not sure if they were done by the company or by an armorer or what.

I just got a veritable train car load of info that I need to sort through & add to the list, so there may be something in there. Gonna try & see if I can't get it added tonight.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:20 am 
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The list has had some major updates. A lot more information is available now, some unconfirmed manufacturers have been confirmed, and new manufacturers have been added.

Still not sure about those vertical lines, but this page shows some with 1 line, 2 lines, and one with an actual roman numeral 2.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=215018

Also, brass clips were manufactured by Italy, and slab-sided ones (m90 clips without the cut outs) were made by Russia.

From DocAV:
Quote:
There are probably still some un-identified M95 clips out there, as in those for the Italian Booty rifles (M95s, all 8x50R, from 1918-1941, in Colonial East Africa--ammo manufactured in Italy 1937-38.)

The Bulgarians received the Bulk of Austria's inventory of M95/30 rifles and 8x56R ammo in 1938/39, as part of the Post Anschluss(with Germany) re-equipment drive to issue Kar98k to all the new "German" (Austrian) infantry divisions.
Hungary, also supplied the Bulgarians with ammo when the Hungarian army went over to the 7,9mm 43M in 1943, from their 31M and 35M rifles in 8x56R.


I'm really amazed by the Kynoch subcontractor. These clips really got around!

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 Post subject: Re: m95 clip markings
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:01 am 
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Zeliard wrote:
1891-1924: Sofia Artillery Arsenal
1924-1948 State Military Factory, Kazanlak

1891-1925: Sofia Artillery Arsenal
1926-1948 State Military Factory, Kazanlak



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Thanks Valo, welcome to the boards! :)

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