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This "Schmeisser designed the AK" nonsense...

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DarkLord
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Re: This "Schmeisser designed the AK" nonsense...

#16 Post by DarkLord » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:01 pm

The notion that it's all Soviet propaganda held sway for many decades (I'm assuming TNGhost is over 40), but since the fall of the Iron Curtain, access to actual records are now available, and the actual records are showing that the Soviet's clearly designed the AK without any help from the Germans. The assumption that it was all propaganda fit western propaganda, and since the Soviet's weren't really sharing access to their prototypes and archives, there was nothing to refute it. Now, we have such access, and we're finding out the Germans had pretty much nothing to do with the AK beyond the Soviets copying the concept.

https://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2017/ ... eenth.html

https://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2019/ ... 8iz0RXJPHI

https://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2019/ ... 2mMwsEq7T8
Note - In this second article the author assumes the Germans helped with stamping; unfortunately this is speculation, not fact. Now the Russians may have consulted the Germans on stamping, but clearly not in the case of the AK (perhaps other weapons systems that were far more intricate and complex). But observation clearly shows that the level of stamping used in the AK had been going on since 1941 in the PPSh-41 and much more so in the PPSh-43. So clearly the Soviets were capable of simple stamping...And the first model AK receiver is a very simple stamping.

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Re: This "Schmeisser designed the AK" nonsense...

#17 Post by TNGhost » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:58 pm

Archives, as in Soviet archives. Which I am sure in no way were doctored to support the Kalashnikov fairy-tale.

Lots of stuff out there on this:
Mikhail Kalashnikov denied any foreign influence on his designs, Schmeisser told Western spies that he gave them ideas. Soviet prisoner from 1945 to 1952, the East Germans said Schmeisser died of pneumonia in 1953. In 2009, Kalashnikov allegedly admitted that Schmeisser helped.
Hugo went home to East Germany, told spies from the west he helped design the AK, and a short time later was dead...

If the Soviets went to that length to guard their propaganda, they certainly would have edited the records.

http://www.lignod.com/gunschmeisser.htm

We have a very clear picture of who developed nearly every significant weapon in the last couple hundred years(including the A-Bomb), with the exception the AK. There is no independent source beyond the Russian archives to verify who designed it, and Schmeisser conveniently died after saying he had played a role, a role the Russians, and Kalashnikov himself denied for over 50 years

Even today there are those that are saying Hugo could not of designed it because there were no features from his previous guns, that it was an amalgamation of features borrowed from other weapons like the Garand. They then turn around and try to debase Schmeisser by saying the STG44 was an amalgamation of previous design ideas that he borrowed. If that's the case, then it fits his MO.

Soviet archives vs. overwhelming circumstantial evidence. We'll never know the truth, the Russians have seen to that. So believe what you want, there is no proof positive either way. I opine it was Schmeisser, simply because to do otherwise is to buy in to the soviet propaganda.

More food for thought:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... ned-ak-47/

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Re: This "Schmeisser designed the AK" nonsense...

#18 Post by Haris122 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:47 pm

Man, I had spent an entire hour crafting a nice comment and then it all went to shit when I had to log back in again. This time I’m going to condense it a bit.

I think some uncredited help definitely was provided by the germans but ultimately it was still a more original soviet idea than straight and thorough intellectual theft from german weapons makers in my opinion.

My primary reasons being

#1, that even before ww2 the soviet union came up with some pretty interesting ideas in infantry weapons (along with the US they were the other big country that had armed a good section of troops with semi auto rifles).

#2 even during the war they thought of some pretty good gun designs that were at the same time cheap and quick to manufacture. As mentioned, the PPS comes to mind especially cause it used a lot of stamping work as well.

#3 and probably the most vital one, is the development of the PKM machine gun. That was attributed to Kalashnikov and other soviet designers. Granted it was something built upon after the AK design but you’d think it still takes some serious innovation to modify the design to be as good and reliable a machine gun as that is.

Now how much Kalashnikov himself was the main brainchild in this, who knows. And there definitely is that whole type 1 AK stampings imperfections counterpoint. And if true, it is awfully convenient that Schmeisser was that close by at just the right time. Yet still, the quick workaround to milled, and revisiting properly stamped AK’s 8 or so years down the line is I think still a tribute to them ultimately knowing what they were doing on their own.

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Re: This "Schmeisser designed the AK" nonsense...

#19 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:13 pm

If you type slow and think, quality takes time. Always make a copy prior to your posting in case you time out. When you hit the post button all will be lost if it asks you to re log-in due to being timed out. Save a copy of all long posts on the desk top. Been there, done that.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: This "Schmeisser designed the AK" nonsense...

#20 Post by Haris122 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:14 pm

Yeah I should’ve known. It used to happen before too. I just was being optimistic hoping it would be retained. But yeah I feel like my main point centers around how they made all the extra modifications and adjustments on the PKM series of guns and how those turned out pretty successful.

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