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 Post subject: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find--update
New postPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Not able to get pics up yet as it's been a H#// of a day. I mostly collect Mosins, but I've always loved the SMLE and No4. I have a few nice ones, and am always on the lookout for more.

I got the green light to go to a show this morning, with my mother-in-law in hospital and a bunch of kids coming over I was pretty pleased for a few spare hours of me-time. I got to the show and was browsing for maybe 15-20 minutes when I get a call on the cell that my 4-year-old was messing around and smacked his face on the bathroom tile. Off to the ER for stitches, come right away. Rrrrrrrrrrrrr! So I quickly scan another isle or two looking for the deal of the show, and got a nice Serb M24 long bayo in cosmoline for cheap and spot this Enfield. I looked it over for cross-bolt screw or other signs of shenanigans. Impulse bought it, maybe out of spite, but did get him down to $300 OTD. I figured that I could get that much out of it online.

The only draw back is that the fore-end is cut and repaired. Didn't really notice that in my haste, unfortunately, but I'm not sure it is a deal killer. It has the rear volley sight, but not the front. The rear sight is updated, but the protective ears are there on the handguard. The nose piece is later one I think, and the bore should clean up well. The bolt forced-matches the receiver and the charger bridge is present on the bolt head.

I'll need some comments on the correctness of parts and such once I get pics up. I'm not sure if it was imported as-is long ago, or if it was messed with. The older guy who sold it had other old milsurps that have been around for a long time and were in various states of assembly and sporterization. He has a PE 91/30 without scope that has no import marks on it, but wrong bolt that was bubba bent and stock cut poorly for bolt handle and repaired with putty. Proper sniper stock ruined.

So I may go take some pics of the rifle, but the pics of the boy's 5 stitches will have to wait till he wakes up. Second set of stitches in 4 months. :roll: Blood pressure....

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 1173-1.jpg

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Last edited by Homer2 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:53 am, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:49 pm 
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By the sound of your description you've probably done very well! There are quite a few fine points of difference between a MkI*** and a MkIII. Once you get some pics up someone will start the ball rolling.
Just out of interest sake, I see the term "force matched" often when people are refering mainly to bolt serial #'s... what is it supposed to mean?

Hope the young bloke's ok... a bit sore and sorry?

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:06 am 
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Here's some quick pics. Please excuse the lack of editing, as I'm scheduling my life in 15 minute intervals and don't know when I might get called to solve some crisis. :tounge:

http://s180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... LE%201904/

The boy is fine, thanks! He's just trying to catch up with Dad for trauma and head injuries. :lol: His mother is the one to worry about.

By forced-matched, I mean during arsenal refurb, the lining out and re-marking parts to match, or non-original matching. The nose piece is definately not matching on this one. I still haven't disassembled it, but did check the headspace and it passes the field .074 gauge, so it's headed to the range if it passes visual inspection. :thumb:

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:15 am 
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I believe "force matched" means the bolt has been matched to the rifle buy a electro pencil engraver, This may have been done during a factory repair or rebuild to the rifle.
I have a few No.4's that are marked totally with an electro pencil engraver , so not sure where this "forced match" thing comes into play??

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No.4 MKI's - BSA M47C & M47, FAZ, Maltby / No.4 MKI*'s - 2 Longbranch , Savage.
No.4 MKII - FAZ 1950
No.5 FAZ 1945.
No.1 MKIII* - 1916 BSA,1916 Enfield,1917 SSA,1940 Dispersal,1942 Lithgow,1943 GRI.
No.1 MKIII - 1916 BSA.
Mosin Nagant M44.


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:19 am 
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Looks like a keeper to me !!! :thumb:

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No.4 MKI's - BSA M47C & M47, FAZ, Maltby / No.4 MKI*'s - 2 Longbranch , Savage.
No.4 MKII - FAZ 1950
No.5 FAZ 1945.
No.1 MKIII* - 1916 BSA,1916 Enfield,1917 SSA,1940 Dispersal,1942 Lithgow,1943 GRI.
No.1 MKIII - 1916 BSA.
Mosin Nagant M44.


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:13 am 
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Homer2 wrote:
Here's some quick pics. Please excuse the lack of editing, as I'm scheduling my life in 15 minute intervals and don't know when I might get called to solve some crisis. :tounge:

http://s180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... LE%201904/

The boy is fine, thanks! He's just trying to catch up with Dad for trauma and head injuries. :lol: His mother is the one to worry about.

By forced-matched, I mean during arsenal refurb, the lining out and re-marking parts to match, or non-original matching. The nose piece is definately not matching on this one. I still haven't disassembled it, but did check the headspace and it passes the field .074 gauge, so it's headed to the range if it passes visual inspection. :thumb:


It looks like a MK3 forearm is installed that has been spliced making one from two,installed with both MK1 and MK3 rear site protectors,Has a MK3 nose cap not a MK1,Bridge has been cut off,It is a mix of MK3 and MK1 parts where it should be all MK1 parts and have a charging bridge.
-the charging bridge it could be made into something if you can find all the correct parts.


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:26 am 
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I do believe that this rifles charging bridge was attached to the bolt!!!
EDIT !! That looks like the correct Bolt head , not sure first time I have seen one , I think if you open that bolt , pull it to the rear , the right side of that bolthead and the left side of the receiver creates the charger bridge .

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Enfield's
No.4 MKI's - BSA M47C & M47, FAZ, Maltby / No.4 MKI*'s - 2 Longbranch , Savage.
No.4 MKII - FAZ 1950
No.5 FAZ 1945.
No.1 MKIII* - 1916 BSA,1916 Enfield,1917 SSA,1940 Dispersal,1942 Lithgow,1943 GRI.
No.1 MKIII - 1916 BSA.
Mosin Nagant M44.


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:46 am 
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bonnieandclyde wrote:
I do believe that this rifles charging bridge was attached to the bolt!!!
EDIT !! That looks like the correct Bolt head , not sure first time I have seen one , I think if you open that bolt , pull it to the rear , the right side of that bolthead and the left side of the receiver creates the charger bridge .


Oh it looks/looked like it was cut off to me the ones i have seen also have a top receiver cover. [peice of tin it looked like]

JUST DOUBLE CHECKED ON THAT AND YOUR RIGHT IT IS ON THE BOLT HEAD WHEN PULLED BACK IT FORMS A BRIDGE.


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:12 am 
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Ok, from the pics the receiver looks to be all original and in pretty good nic. The charger guide, (both the fixed part on the left wall of the receiver and the sliding guide on the bolthead) are correct exactly as they are. Only obvious non original bit on the receiver is the safety lever- it's a MkIII. Even the Sparkbrook volley sight post may have been orig.
If the bolt has a number struck out with three lines then re-numbered with serial matching the receiver, best bet is it was replaced from 2nd hand bits in service.
By the look of the rear sight set up, I'd say the barrel has been replaced, (MkIII). The foreend is definately MkI in the back (although it looks to have been converted by bubba to take the rear sight ears) and MkIII in the front half. The front handguard is MkIII but the rear handguard is MkI (and combined with the bolthead would probably be worth more than what you paid for the rifle).

Personal opinion, I think the rifle has been someones restoration project. It would be worth what you paid just to have it sitting around on the chance the correct foreend comes up. Then with a nosecap, which I believe are still available in the US, and a bit of fiddling with the front handguard, you would have a near enough to complete example. :thumb:

Force matched wasn't a term used in the Commonwealth system. There were levels of repair depending on the severity of the fault with the weapon. Starting with Unit Level Repair, then it was Force Level (both of these levels are within the deployment). Next up the scale it was sent to Base Workshop or further to Factory Repair (or even FTR) Once a weapon was inspected by an armourer, he would decide what it needed, and that would dictate how far up it went. Depending on the support they were getting, force level could have been changing barrels and fitting different bolts. Whether they were engraved or stamped would depend on the repair level's authorisation and equipment to do the marking and the specific instructions for carrying out the work.

Here's two pics I just took to demonstrate the charger in the two piece charger guide set up. Once the bolt is withdrawn to the rear, the sliding charger guide on the bolthead is stopped by the lug on the right rear receiver wall. This aligns it with the left fixed lug and allows the insertion of a charger. Fist pic, charger fitted, second close up of lugs on the charger and coresponding slots in the guides

Attachment:
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DSCF0009a.JPG [ 82.88 KiB | Viewed 28 times ]


Attachment:
DSCF0013a.JPG
DSCF0013a.JPG [ 168.56 KiB | Viewed 29 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:57 am 
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Don't know if the back part of the forend is Mk1 or MkIII, but i would expect on a 1904 Mk1 the brass reinforcing rod at the rear, to be the rod & washer type as used with the Longlees, the rear sight is a MkIII type but it is attached to a Mk1 sight bed, this i can tell by the screw & extension at the front of the sight bed.

1904 EFD Mk1
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04EFDmain.jpg [ 208.02 KiB | Viewed 52 times ]


1907 BSA MkIII
Attachment:
07BSAmain.jpg
07BSAmain.jpg [ 308.65 KiB | Viewed 49 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:15 am 
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[quote="5Batt"]Don't know if the back part of the forend is Mk1 or MkIII, but i would expect on a 1904 Mk1 the brass reinforcing rod at the rear, to be the rod & washer type as used with the Longlees, the rear sight is a MkIII type but it is attached to a Mk1 sight bed, this i can tell by the screw & extension at the front of the sight bed.

Mate, good pick up on the sight bed- I didn't even look at it. #-o
The reasoning behind the rear of the foreend being MkI, it's not cut for a charger bridge. Also the inletting for the MkIII rear sight ears is a bit rough too, and they are set too deep.

So, the barrel may be original- a quick look under the handguard at the number will confirm that. All the better!

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find--update
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:01 am 
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Thanks for the replies. I need to crack the book, but it's looking like a restoration project. Now I need to figure out what to do to get a proper fore-end and which one to look for.

Ok, disassembled it and it seems more confusing. My guess is the barrel IS for a MkIII, but it was serial numbered to the rifle, so it looks to have been done in arsenal. Which one is the question. The date on the barrel is '14, but has marking for '44 and '45 underneath.

I'd say the bolt is original, as the serial looks proper and there are not lined-out numbers.

So, if it was updated with a MkIII barrel, would I need a MkIII fore-end, or can I attempt to get a MKI fore-end? (if I ever find one, that is)

Check the photo link for the updated pics.
Barrel pics:
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081202.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081215.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081206.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081205.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081204.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081203.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081220.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081221.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081222.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081223.jpg

Bolt:
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081197.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081198.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081199.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x116 ... 081200.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find--update
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:55 pm 
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One easy way to tell in this case, without wading through the markings, is look at the bottom surface of the inner band. Because the MkIII model had the band moved an inch further back up the barrel, the MkIII band is slightly bigger in the bore and will have III stamped alongside of the screw hole. If it is blank, then the barrel was MkI, and probably fitted at the time it was converted from MkI (or MkI*) to MkI*** which would have been 1914. The main mod at this time was an alteration to the sight ramp for MkVII ammunition.

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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:00 pm 
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techsupport wrote:
5Batt wrote:
Don't know if the back part of the forend is Mk1 or MkIII, but i would expect on a 1904 Mk1 the brass reinforcing rod at the rear, to be the rod & washer type as used with the Longlees, the rear sight is a MkIII type but it is attached to a Mk1 sight bed, this i can tell by the screw & extension at the front of the sight bed.

Mate, good pick up on the sight bed- I didn't even look at it. #-o
The reasoning behind the rear of the foreend being MkI, it's not cut for a charger bridge. Also the inletting for the MkIII rear sight ears is a bit rough too, and they are set too deep.

So, the barrel may be original- a quick look under the handguard at the number will confirm that. All the better!


That is why i said it myself 4 posts before this but i just noted it has 3 stars after the 1 so it could of been updated to the MK3 site protector.
So he could use a MK1 or MK3 forestock but on the MK3 he would have to fill in the notch for the charger bridge.


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 Post subject: Re: 1904 ShtLE MKI*** find--update
New postPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:10 pm 
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techsupport wrote:
One easy way to tell in this case, without wading through the markings, is look at the bottom surface of the inner band. Because the MkIII model had the band moved an inch further back up the barrel, the MkIII band is slightly bigger in the bore and will have III stamped alongside of the screw hole. If it is blank, then the barrel was MkI, and probably fitted at the time it was converted from MkI (or MkI*) to MkI*** which would have been 1914. The main mod at this time was an alteration to the sight ramp for MkVII ammunition.


The ramp and band is the same as my 1916 MK3 the only difference is the site is screwed on instead on pressed on.


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