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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:08 pm 
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G'day all.

It seems to me that of all the Lee Enfields out there the No5 is the most slippery of the lot in terms of identification ( Due to the many fakes and copies in the market ) and comprehension of parts and originality for newcomers.

Ok here's the first of the FAQ's to get us started ... more to come as I get time.

[quote]No5 MK1 Jungle Carbine FAQ's.

1# - What factories made the No5 rifle?

Ans - Only two factories ever made the No5 Mk1, Royal Ordnance Factory ( ROF )Fazakerley ( F ) in Liverpool and BSA Birmingham Small Arms ( M47C )

2# - What manufacture codes should be present on the parts of my No5 Mk1?

Ans - See answer to question 1.

3# - Where do I find the manufacture I.D on a No5?

Ans - All manufacture information, dates and serial numbers are found on the left of the receiver and are electro pencilled not stamped.

4# - My No5 doesn't seem to have any markings at all, what now?

Ans - In some cases the markings are very faint and barely noticeable at all - this is especially the case with many BSA rifles where it's common to only find the M47C code to identify it.

5# - Where should I find matching serial numbers?

Ans - On the left of receiver, on the rear flat of the bolt, on the left of the barrel knox form and magazine also stamped in the stock in some cases. In less common cases you may find the serials E/P'd on other parts such as the inside of the trigger guards.

6# - What is the story with overlapping serial number codes and dates?

Ans - Krinko has provided a possible explanation; Fazakerley was running three assembly lines at once for No4 rifle production in WW2 but these lines each had their own letter code sequences, so the multi-line system is easy to see. Perhaps the explanation for the wild letter prefix overlaps is this three line system operating without the special letter codes, which would look like chaos with lots of anomalies?

7# - How many digits do No5's have in their serial numbers?

Ans - Usually you will see a 4 digit serial code system on 99% of Jungle Carbines but there are instances of 3 letter codes and there will likely be 2 letter codes also. The main point here is that 4 is the biggest number you will see. If you have a rifle with a 5 digit serial number then you will likely have a No4 conversion and not a No5.

8# - What are the major clues to identifying that my No5 rifle is real and not a fake?

Ans - In no particular order you should check that ...

# - Your bolt head is hollowed out.

# - Remove the handguard and check that your barrel knox form has the lightening cuts that are unique to this rifle.

# - Check that the rear sight is the correct type Singer style Mk1 or Mk2 sight with a max setting of 800 yards and not 1300 yards as found on No4 back sights.

# - A fast check for the novice is to look at the receiver from the left side and see if it has a distinct step beneath the back sight. If it does not then this is a No4 receiver or even maybe a No1 receiver.

# - You will not find the rectangular lump on the front right side of the receiver wall unlike a No4 receiver.

# - The action cover loop of the No5 trigger guard is a rounded loop and waisted unlike the even U of the No4 cover.

# - Your rifle should have a conical flash eliminator at the muzzle end with bayonet lug beneath.

# - The butt stock should not look the same as a No4 or No1 butt stock. You will see a distinct groove on the rear right side of the stock with a unique D shaped steel sling keep protruding.

9# - What is all this about a wandering zero?

Ans - Back when the No5 was still being manufactured there was a period of time when the No5 was seen as being the logical successor to the No4 rifle as the standard battle rifle. After performing various trials it was ( apparently ) reported that the No5 would not hold it's zero and under certain circumstances would lose it altogether. More trials were conducted and there were various reports of the lightening of the receiver being a cause of the issue as well as stocking up in some instances.

In the context of the period the rest of the world was moving toward SLR or Self Loading Rifles and it is now largely believed that the Wandering Zero story was an expedient means of the MOD justifying re-tooling and scrapping the No5 to the Government bean counters so they could move to the SLR. After all the trials and R&D that had already been done for production of the No5 they needed an excuse for this change as Britain was now also facing a struggling post war economy unlike the U.S.

It is now widely held that the Wandering Zero was the excuse they required. Few if any No5 owners today find any accuracy issues with their rifles and fewer still can replicate the wandering zero. While we know the Wandering Zero issue did exist in some instances, many modern owners can not find any evidence of it, which begs the question.

10# - What is the significance of the capped fore-end?

Ans - We see the capped fore-end beginning in early 1946, so post war period. Some were found very early on ( 1944 experimental models ) but the majority are post war. As for significance of the fore-end, it was requested that a fore-end cap be introduced for protection of the fore-end itself and also to guard against moisture entering the end grain.

[b]Info is compiled in the Data Base sticky.

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Last edited by Tikirocker on Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:14 pm, edited 60 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:08 pm 
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Location: Lithgow - NSW, Australia
Age: 43
Tikirocker
Date/Year - 12/1945
Factory - Fazakerley
S/N - T75XX - all matching.
Fore end cap - No
Other stamps/proofs - England export mark on receiver and BNP Birmingham Nitro Proof on barrel just in front of the handguard.

Matching serial numbers ( all Electro Pencilled ) are found on my rifle left of receiver, left of barrel knox lightening cut and curiously along the inner side edge of the trigger guard hidden by the fore end.


Quote:
The story ...

I found this poor little JC out west minus it's butt stock and decided to snap it up at a very decent price to say the least. It's all matching, bolt, receiver and barrel and had been thick coated in varnish - can you say Citristrip? :)

I managed to track down a butt stock and had to do some serious wood matching - finished the rifle in a few coats of BLO - ( No sandpaper was used in the restoration of this rifle!!! )


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Last edited by Tikirocker on Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:30 pm
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Location: longwood, florida
Age: 63
Heres mine,
Gman53
date/year 8/44
factory Fazakerley
S/N A37XX
Bolt and reciever match, no number on magazine
Fore end cap No
Stamped BNP .303 in front of handguard
England stamped on rear of reciever
behind trigger guard on bottom of stock is crown and J9
with a large F under that. heres a few pic's. Its had a tough life but the bore is sweet.
Image
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Last edited by gman53 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:52 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:27 pm
Posts: 693
Location: Northern VA
Age: 40
Laserjock
Month/Year - 10/1947
Factory - Fazakerley
S/N - AC31XX - all matching.
Metal Fore end cap - Yes
Other stamps/proofs - No export marks (England or BNP). Serial number stamped on buttstock socket. Magazine has a strikeout number but is stamped to match the SN.


Pstssst! You guys forgot the pics. Go back and edit. May I suggest we include as an attachment to prevent dead links?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:07 pm 
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Mil-Surp Collector
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Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:17 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Bewteen No Where & No Place WA
Age: 69
3/47 -- Fazakerley
S/N: Z 7XXX
All matching: receiver, bolt, magazine, & fore stock
Metal cap on fore stock
Bayonet: Poole, dated 1947


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:12 am
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Location: San Diego, California
Age: 19
Thought I might chime in after an invite from Laserjock

bolt serial: F8340 (missmatched I believe)
BSA Shirley
m47A marked matching parts
reciever scrubbed when the blueing was re-done
1945
metal end cap: yep!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:40 pm 
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I have a semi bubbed 7/44 Fazekerty SN 00125, All numbers match. the flash hider was cut off and the bayonet lug removed along with the sight hoods, all is good though, i got a new repro from Numrich(i could'nt find an original).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:04 pm 
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Location: Lithgow - NSW, Australia
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perfectshot12 wrote:
m47A marked


That should be a C not an A mate ... you sure that's an A? I'm a bit worried if it is.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:42 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:03 am
Posts: 664
Location: Republic of Texas
Age: 55
This my no.5 Mk. 1 rifle.
Build date 12/47 Fazakerly
Serial number AC6252
All matching down to the panties.

:)

dxr

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:21 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:46 pm
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Location: SD
Age: 25
Ledzep

* Year: 9/45

* Factory: ROF Faz.

* First 2 digits of the serial number: R59##

* Metal capped forestock Y/N? No

* Matching parts: Forearm, Buttstock, bolt, reciever, barrel

Mine is also FMP (malaysian police) marked.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:32 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:12 am
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Location: San Diego, California
Age: 19
oh yes, that's my bad Tiki....
I was thinking elsewhere on a different part...
It is a C....not A (stupid me) :roll: :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:32 am
Posts: 586
Location: Alabama, The Confederacy
Age: 62
My contribution:

Mfg: Fazakerley (F)
S/N: AC 1330 - all matching parts
Date: 9/47
Metal Forearm cap: Yes
No proof marks on barrel and a couple of snap shots:

Image

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Image

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:55 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:15 am
Posts: 55
Location: Panama City Beach, Florida, USA
Age: 35
BSA 1945 (no month--left receiver scrubbed, year on buttsocket)

s/n BH2800

Bubbatized wood from a No 4 at the moment, as it is a project rifle and in pieces. I will likely get one of the repro stock sets from Numrich when I can afford it. I also need the safety, flash hider, bolt release parts, rear sight plunger and spring, axis pin, and everything else except the internals and trigger guard. I do have a backsight, though.

I may sell this thing. I'm getting depressed now.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 12:44 am
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Location: Watertown, SD
Age: 41
Thanks to LaserJock for the notification about this thread, and thanks to Tiki for starting it. Hopefully we can get this made into a sticky. With that said, here's the lowdown on my No 5....

Year: 12/1944 (I think it's a 12. The marking is light, but it is '44 for sure)
Factory: Fazakerly (F)
Serial number: F 6388 - All matching
Metal capped forestock: No
Stampings: There is an * on top of the receiver as well as on top of the barrel just ahead of the receiver. There is also a stamping in the butt stock that is an "N" over "D.W.". There is more below that but it is not legible. The butt stock stamping is located on the underside of the wrist just behind the butt socket.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:50 pm
Posts: 2211
Location: N. Illinois
Age: 52
GSCSA

* Year: 12/44

* Factory: Fazakerly

* First 2 digits of the serial number: D9248

* Metal capped forestock: No

Rifle has the Ihsy screw and has been refinished at some point. The handguard is off a No. 4. It also had the FSB form a No.1. It has since been changed out.




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