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Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

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bobvz
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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#16 Post by bobvz » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:32 pm

KneverKnew wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:39 pm
I've read that about other stains being better than minwax. I guess I just use what is available locally. Maybe some of the hobby stores might have those others. Please share some name brands I can look for. Thanks.

If you want to "roll your own" then Grumbacher's Oil Colors ground in linseed oil can be purchased from a hobby/art store for $15+ then mixed in solvent and then mixed in BLO. Orrrrrrr....., you can get a $5.00 tin of Minwax which is the same freakin' thing and mix it with the BLO. Suit yourself. I'm trying to lead you down the path of duplicating what would have been done back in the day when these guns were arsenal refurbished. I've been re-finishing furniture and gun stocks for 50 years. What the hell do I know?

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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#17 Post by KneverKnew » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:58 pm

bobvz wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:32 pm
KneverKnew wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:39 pm
I've read that about other stains being better than minwax. I guess I just use what is available locally. Maybe some of the hobby stores might have those others. Please share some name brands I can look for. Thanks.

If you want to "roll your own" then Grumbacher's Oil Colors ground in linseed oil can be purchased from a hobby/art store for $15+ then mixed in solvent and then mixed in BLO. Orrrrrrr....., you can get a $5.00 tin of Minwax which is the same freakin' thing and mix it with the BLO. Suit yourself. I'm trying to lead you down the path of duplicating what would have been done back in the day when these guns were arsenal refurbished. I've been re-finishing furniture and gun stocks for 50 years. What the hell do I know?
You method is actually close to what I do, minus the mixing the minwax with the BLO. Maybe it's time to give that a try. I have a bunch of minwax colors already as well. Saves on gas driving to the store.

Just curious though. I've been told to use Raw Linseed Oil on the Swiss rifles since it is what was originally used. I suppose I don't care which to use, I have both Raw and Boiled. Does anyone know which will oxidize, darken/redden quickest? Raw Linseed Oil or Boiled?

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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#18 Post by sheepdawg » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:36 am

Pratt and Lambert Tonetic is as good an oil stain as I've seen. Pigments ground much finer than Minwax. As stated I think you can make a good stain using linssed oil, turpentine or mineral spirits and 844 industrial colorants. Just look for a commercially oriented (not SW) paint store in the Tallahassee area, one that sell epoxies, quick dry enamels or lacquers, and ask if the have an 844 tint machine. They may even give you a couple of ozs. of it, it won't take much. Most every stain color can be made with lamp black, yellow oxide and red oxide.

Turpentine has a wonderful piney odor so I prefer it to mineral spirits. :lol: :roll:

I've worked in all aspects of the paint industry for 44 years, 33 of them for a Memphis manufacturer as a field rep, district manager and specifier, One of my jobs was to know what my competition sold and to run complaints on our products as well as trying to remedy other manufacturer's failures. I've done quite a few gun stocks also. As noted there are many ways to do a stock with successful results, I prefer the simple ones using products that are inexpensive, on hand or fairly easy to find.

I can assure everyone the Swedes never used a Minwax product on anything. By the way did you ever wonder why they call it MinWAX?
Allt du egentligen behöver i livet är en bra kvinna, en trofast hund och en fin gammal Mauser.

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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#19 Post by KneverKnew » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:42 pm

Thanks for the comments. First I need to get
The wood stripped down properly removing the old stain and any risiduL oil stains I didn't get the first time.

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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#20 Post by sheepdawg » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:44 pm

My bet would be that the BLO would oxidize quicker because of the chemical driers added. I doubt it would be much faster though.
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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#21 Post by KneverKnew » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:16 pm

I wonder why the Swiss used raw linseed over the boiled? I know the US used boiled linseed as well as Tung oil.

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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#22 Post by bobvz » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:45 pm

sheepdawg wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:36 am
Pratt and Lambert Tonetic is as good an oil stain as I've seen. Pigments ground much finer than Minwax. As stated I think you can make a good stain using linssed oil, turpentine or mineral spirits and 844 industrial colorants.

I've worked in all aspects of the paint industry for 44 years, 33 of them for a Memphis manufacturer as a field rep, district manager and specifier, One of my jobs was to know what my competition sold and to run complaints on our products as well as trying to remedy other manufacturer's failures. I've done quite a few gun stocks also. As noted there are many ways to do a stock with successful results, I prefer the simple ones using products that are inexpensive, on hand or fairly easy to find.

I can assure everyone the Swedes never used a Minwax product on anything. By the way did you ever wonder why they call it MinWAX?
The Swedes did use turpentine(mineral spirits can be substituted), colors ground in oil(linseed oil) and possibly shellac. Turpentine does indeed smell a lot better. Some authors speculate the resins in it add to the final finish toughness. Tested several Swede's that were positive for shellac. Might have been a fortified shellac used for a time in the early 20th century. This used shellac with BLO added as a plasticizer to prevent brittleness. I've read posts that stated Swiss rifles were finished with a combo of shellac and BLO. BLO was in wide use at the time and I guess that what is on most Swedes.

Like I wrote earlier, Minwax stains are composed of mineral spirits,naphtha, and colors(pigments) ground in boiled linseed oil. These are the components recommended by several posters and were used back in the day. I recommended using the tinted liquid on top and not mixing the pigment in to prevent clouding the wood grain. The OP stated he had this on hand and readily available.

Originally the company included liquid paraffin(paraffin oil) or recommended waxing the final product after the sealer stain dried. Hence the name MINWAX. Been in business since 1916 so they must be doing something right. They were known for liquid waterproofing products. Top selling stain in America. Is it the best - no. But it does work and can deliver desired results if used within it's limits. There are plenty of other great products too.

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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#23 Post by KneverKnew » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:06 pm

Since my normal method, which generally turns out very nice, is to apply the minwax stain in several coats first, to get desired color, and then hand rub on the BLO (or RLO or Tung) then the idea of using the "tinted top oils" from the stains intrigues me. I might try applying just those tinted oils first though, and then the BLO, instead of mixing. Wouldn't the stains be quite a bit lighter without the "bottom" pigments?
I would think it would quite a bit lighter if the stain "top oils" were blended with BLO as well. So, what would be the benefit over mixing the two first, as to applying the stain "top oils" first and then the BLO? Would I be able to get the color dark enough with just the "top oils"? I'm liking this concept though...and like you said, I have the materials on hand. :)

Also, I just found out from my friend who I just bought my Ljungman back after it being gone for over 25 years, the he actually does have a spare Ljungman stock with handguard. He is asking if I am interested. So, how much would a stock like this be worth these days? It does look a bit beat up. Here are the pictures he sent me. Looks like beech wood. He says the interior channels look untreated with stair or oil. I'm going to try and get more pictures from him.
Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#24 Post by sheepdawg » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:40 am

bobvz wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:45 pm
sheepdawg wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:36 am
Pratt and Lambert Tonetic is as good an oil stain as I've seen. Pigments ground much finer than Minwax. As stated I think you can make a good stain using linssed oil, turpentine or mineral spirits and 844 industrial colorants.

I've worked in all aspects of the paint industry for 44 years, 33 of them for a Memphis manufacturer as a field rep, district manager and specifier, One of my jobs was to know what my competition sold and to run complaints on our products as well as trying to remedy other manufacturer's failures. I've done quite a few gun stocks also. As noted there are many ways to do a stock with successful results, I prefer the simple ones using products that are inexpensive, on hand or fairly easy to find.

I can assure everyone the Swedes never used a Minwax product on anything. By the way did you ever wonder why they call it MinWAX?
The Swedes did use turpentine(mineral spirits can be substituted), colors ground in oil(linseed oil) and possibly shellac. Turpentine does indeed smell a lot better. Some authors speculate the resins in it add to the final finish toughness. Tested several Swede's that were positive for shellac. Might have been a fortified shellac used for a time in the early 20th century. This used shellac with BLO added as a plasticizer to prevent brittleness. I've read posts that stated Swiss rifles were finished with a combo of shellac and BLO. BLO was in wide use at the time and I guess that what is on most Swedes.

Like I wrote earlier, Minwax stains are composed of mineral spirits,naphtha, and colors(pigments) ground in boiled linseed oil. These are the components recommended by several posters and were used back in the day. I recommended using the tinted liquid on top and not mixing the pigment in to prevent clouding the wood grain. The OP stated he had this on hand and readily available.

Originally the company included liquid paraffin(paraffin oil) or recommended waxing the final product after the sealer stain dried. Hence the name MINWAX. Been in business since 1916 so they must be doing something right. They were known for liquid waterproofing products. Top selling stain in America. Is it the best - no. But it does work and can deliver desired results if used within it's limits. There are plenty of other great products too.
This is the first I've heard of the Swedish stock makers combining shellac and BLO in many years of collecting Swedes. It's not mentioned in Crown Jewels or House of Karlina. I have my doubts but I'll run it by a couple of collector buddies of mine. Could you please cite your reference?

The company I worked for sold Minwax before Sherwin Williams bought them in 1996. Delamination of the finish was the most common complaint thus my suspicions of a wax though it is more likely the applicator didn't apply the product per instructions. Their MSDS sheet makes no mention of a paraffin though ingredients under a certain percentage or that can be justified as a trade secret may be left off of MSDS sheets. Never the less I developed quite a dislike of their products after running numerous complaints.

The reason they are the number one stain in America is simple, they are owned by perhaps the largest if not the largest paint manufacturer in the world with 4,000 plus company owned stores in the United States and probably four times as many dealers from the mom and pop hardware store to Home Depot and Walmart. Oddly enough Pratt and Lambert is also owned by SW but I'm sure their Tonetic line of stains is not the profit maker Minwax is and thus relegated to their Pratt and Lambert line, more for the professional and less of a retail product.
Allt du egentligen behöver i livet är en bra kvinna, en trofast hund och en fin gammal Mauser.

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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#25 Post by bobvz » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:08 pm

sheepdawg wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:40 am




This is the first I've heard of the Swedish stock makers combining shellac and BLO in many years of collecting Swedes. It's not mentioned in Crown Jewels or House of Karlina. I have my doubts but I'll run it by a couple of collector buddies of mine. Could you please cite your reference?

I didn't say they used shellac wholesale or that I got it from a source. Pure speculation on my part. I said I tested several and got a positive result from the methanol test. IOW the finish softened and smeared but wasn't completely destroyed. Most Swede rifles I've handled were negative. I tested the two rifles back in the early 90's and I am pretty sure they weren't bubba'd. The finishes on them looked too thick and shiny and got my suspicions up. One was a 1900 CG and the other a 1917 CG. Both with walnut stocks. Fortified shellac is discussed in a book by George Grotz.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... 3,200_.jpg

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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#26 Post by sheepdawg » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:26 pm

Well bobvz my Swedish collector buddy said it was true. Even one of the biggest experts in the U.S. said he'd never heard of that one. My Swedish buddy said it was a small amount just to bump the sheen up a little but was discontinued when the finished product started flaking a few years later.

I guess we come to these places to learn things and by golly I just did.
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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#27 Post by bobvz » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:33 pm

Yes as we have seen with Mosins shellac flakes badly. That makes sense. Thanks for the corroboration from your friend. When you use shellac as a sealer rather than a top finish it's benefits can be seen in improved stain regulation and water resistance. It also is resistant to oil, aiding in the prevention of oil soaking. I'm going to try and dig up a book I read where paper patches were coated with different finishes and then wet with water. Shellac was the second best at water resistance inferior only to spar varnish. Old text so modern finishes are likely better. Shellac will blush when wet but this is only microscopic. After that it becomes highly resistant. The 1900 CG was showing crazing of the finish. I have also seen many French Polish antiques (which is shellac padded on wood using a linseed oil soaked blotter) with this defect.

It is very useful when trying to finish particularly oily gunstocks. After removing most of the oil spit/wash coat the wood in shellac to seal in the oil. Then an oil based finish can be applied over it without fear of drying issues. Just make sure the shellac you are using has no paraffin wax in it. Works much like KILZ does for paints.

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Re: Original stock wood color for the Swedes (bolt actions and semi's)

#28 Post by KneverKnew » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

I like to ask a lot of questions. Did it while in college. Still do it to this day. That's how I learn what I Knever Knew. :)

Learning something new every day. Thanks guys.

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