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Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

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Kurt
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Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#1 Post by Kurt » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:25 am

Hello. I have a 1916 civilian guard Spanish Mauser redone for 7.62x51. I also have some 7.62x51 ammo marked LOT: 8-80 (?August 1980?). Headstamped TZ 80. Would this ammo be appropriate for the mentioned rifle? The rifle is in very good condition. I believe the ammo is Israeli but I am not sure? Would the primers be Boxer and non-corrosive? Any idea of the bullet weight? Thank you very much! Kurt

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Re: Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#2 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:28 pm

I would use a weak load like store purchased Federal 7.62 NATO ammo in a less expensive Spanish conversion rifle.
TZ 80 HOLD ON, PULL a few rounds to judge condition. Check OAL on them most consider it corrosive, I have no idea. see
http://gunlore.awardspace.info/gunknow/ ... ug2012.htm
Post what you found.


That ammo is problematic. It is Israeli and came in loose groups- no boxes. Some say it was really dirty and that the ammo was tumbled to clean the case and as most know tumbling live ammo is not the best idea depending on how long it was tumbled and it may have caused a break down in powder grain size that results in uneven pressures. I would never tumble ammo.
see this as evidence on different accuracy and pressure s: http://gunhub.com/m14/11979-shoot-nato- ... -nato.html

From the above, may be there is some truth to the tumbling story :think:
Below is part of a post i made on another forum . Since then i've found out that this garbage is manufactured in Isreal , which is not a NATO country but you'd think it would be loaded to NATO specs . Since the original post we've pulled bullets and weighed charges and the weight variation is as pathetic as the accuracy and velocity spread . Just trying to save someone aggravation and money .

Ammunition . Light brown boxes marked 20 rounds , 7.62 x 51 , lot # 1080 , headstamped , TZ-80 .

Buddy and i tried out his M-14 on saturday . He just recieved it and no time yet for load development so he purchased the 5 boxes of the above ammunition to try it out .

Solid bench rest and the targets were 100 yards away . Buddy purchased this rifle because of what i'd said and told him to expect somewhere around 2 to 3 inch 5 shot groups @ 100 .

He slowly fired 3 - 5 shot groups while i was on the spotting scope . His first group was 5.00 inches and the next two were 6.00 inches . Buddy handed me the rifle and i fired 2 - 5 shot groups . Both were 5 inches . Buddy and i can both shoot and this was pathetic .

Buddy went in the house and brought out a box of 150 grain Winchester Silvertips . 3 - 5 shot groups with one group at 1.500 inches and the second two groups at 2.00 inches .

Buddy went in and brought out his Speedtach chronograph . He fired 10 rounds of the TZ-80 surplus and the slowest bullet was 2,230 fps and the highest velocity was 2,756 fps . A 526 fps spread with the other 8 rounds all over the place between the high and the low . No two cartridges are loaded to the same over all length .
Now, I have not used this ammo and was told this second hand at gun shows.
I was also told it is loaded very HOT similar to and like Turk 8mm mauser is a wee bit hotter than other 8mm surplus. Just how HOT, I do not know, I have not fired any to make a comparison. But I would not want to fire HOT ammo in a less expensive Spanish rifle that is a conversion to 7.62 x 51 Nato too boot.
Also some say the brass experiences case splits. Wear safety glasses.
Here are some comments for the CMP forum http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=18278

also the ammolab guy knows his stuff see his comment in this post:
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthre ... id=2813175
Maybe ammolab will comment.

So in a Spanish rechambered NATO rifle :pray: :pray: :doh: :doh: I would get the best low power NATO possible and not risk problems. My eyesight is more important than cheep ammo. Or get a nice Israeli NATO K98 and shoot it in that rifle. :doh: :dance: :think:
Not to bad mouth Spanish steel, but I think the 1916 conversion is not as strong an action as a k98 Israeli rifle. Just my thoughts and I am not actually sure of this. Just my 2 cents bs .
The Spanish conversion on a rather inexpensive rifle will chamber and shoot the standard 7.62x51 NATO ammo, but there is some questions as to the actual strenght of the Spanish action in my mind. That rifle was originally made for 7x57 mauser and designed for pressure tests at or around 43,000-50,00o. The NATO 7.62x51 cartridge will acheive pressure around 50,000-60,00 psi. IN 1916 the Spanish steel wasn't designed/set up for such high pressure rounds. The rifle may not be the best choice for a conversion. Why not pick up a nice Israeli .308 k98 and dump the Spanish rifle or use it in trade for a stronger action??

see http://www.milsurpafterhours.com/bb/vie ... php?t=8177
Slowbob is a mauser expert and maybe he can correct me and provide his thoughts on the matter. Maybe PM both Slowbob and the ammolab guys for input.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#3 Post by Kurt » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:03 pm

72 USMC. Thanks very much for taking the time to provide me with extensive information on this subject. I will post pictures of the rifle and the ammo but I, unfortunately, will be pulling bullets again. I have about 400 rounds of this stuff I inherited from my father. When he got into his eighties he began stockpiling and I have already unloaded at least a thousand rounds of 30-06 and 7.62 NATO. I don't know what the NATO stuff was but I reloaded some of it and before shooting I saw that the case necks were cracked. This sounds like the issues you conveyed. I will pull the bullets and reload with 40 grains IMR3031. This is a very low-pressure load. I will do it in small batches and will easily have ammo to last me till I am as old as my dad was (93). Thanks again for the information. Kurt

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Re: Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#4 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:36 pm

It certainly looks like nice clean ammo in the box. Have you encountered any of it with clumped or wet powder? Any with green corrosion to the inside of the case? Please let us know when you pull some of these down.

My Yugo 8mm from the 1950s encounters splits after being fired. I also have some bad 7.62x 54R Russian ammo from a batch where it's so brittle the bullets can be pulled out by hand. Our Fleet & Farm store was selling it, but then due to reports from a few that open their tins, the store had the police dept destroy pallets of the stuff back around 1998-99. I have a tin, but can no longer remember what country it was from. You can see splits at the top where the bullet sits and some you can pull off the bullet with your finger. Powder is dry, just weak odd brass.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#5 Post by slowbob2 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:06 pm

The ammo in the photo has not been tumble cleaned as you can still see the annealing . Surplus is surplus , some is crap , some is fine . Many factors to consider over 50 to 100 years . Fire a few and see how the case looks and how easy the bolt lifts . There is nothing wrong with loading down some either , easier on ANY rifle . I am not fighting a war , so I shoot most of mine at about 80 % or less.

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Re: Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#6 Post by Kurt » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:28 pm

Thank you for the replies. Yes, the cartridges are clean and untarnished. The boxes are clean and sealed. Does the "LOT: 8-80" mean August of 1980? If so the ammo would not be corrosive correct? Since I won't be able to tell what powder is used in these cartridges I assume I'll have to dump it and reload with something else? I will most likely use 40 grains of imr 3031. which is aprox. 49000 psi.

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Re: Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#7 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:55 pm

Ammolab made a reply on your duplicate post:
he stated
I would uase any quality 7.62x51 surplus

EXCEPT the TZ 80 mfg....this ammo is known for MANY cartridge case head failures with 52,000psi of gas dumped into the action on firing. I had 3 cases fail from the rim to the primer pocket shooting 100rds of this ammo. Google "TZ 80 case failure" or similar for other similar stories.

It is boxer/NonCorrosive but the defective cartridge cases are your primary concern.
By the way that is a nice tiger stripe on that rifle. :dance:
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#8 Post by Rapidrob » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:57 am

Several of my club members have these rifles. Any issue 7.62x51mm NATO spec ammo is safe to use and we have seen no issues what so ever.
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Re: Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#9 Post by 72 usmc » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:59 am

here is the duplicate post with interesting comments:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2174
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#10 Post by Kurt » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:16 pm

I was wrong when I mentioned the load I intend to use. I meant 36 grains imr 3031 with the 147 grain bullet = 36000 CUP

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Re: Spanish 1916 7.62 ammo?

#11 Post by bobvz » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:42 pm

Almost every gun crank I run into thinks 7.62x51 NATO is loaded hotter that commercial. The military has no desire to "hot rod" their ammo. They want ammo that will function reliably to standard and not destroy their weapons and injure troops. I test fire rifles every day with commercial and military ammo. The commercial .308 stuff flattens and craters primers on a regular basis. The military 7.62x51leaves nice rounded primer edges. Russian steel cased 7.62 is another matter. Super high pressures on Wolf with zinc plated bullets. May be due to bore friction issues. I had a Wolf case rupture in a Ishapore 7.62 NATO and nearly torched off the end of my ring finger. Partly my fault for my left hand hold at the magazine and the Enfield breeching system.

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