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Link to Clip Markings

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Link to Clip Markings

#1 Post by Zeliard » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:57 pm

Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

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Re: Link to Clip Markings

#2 Post by Esu_1985 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:23 pm

From original thread:

Any new information, even speculative, can be found on this thread along with previous discussions. The last page of the thread and the list will contain the latest information.

BEGIN THREAD-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's additional information in the thread below not found on the list.
Feel free (please do!) to post any information/question/pictures of m90 & m95 clips.


Zeliard

Steyr M90 & M95 En-Bloc Clip Markings

These are notes I've made regarding the markings found on the clips used for the Steyr M90 & M95, with the assistance of The Hebrew Hammer, Procrastinator43, 1886Lebel, Rapidrob, & other members at the Surplus Rifle forums ( http://www.surplusrifleforum.com ), Doc AV, Nick, Enfield56, Valo62 & other members over at Parallax Bill's straight pull forums (http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsfo ... armsforums), Nick, Doc AV, Enfield56, KH, Alb87, jaz5833, Valo62 &, AndyB & Jerry in MI over at Gunboards.com (http://forums.gunboards.com), Valo62 over at Yesterday's Weapons M95 forum (http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB2/index.php) and PButler over at The International Ammunition Association's Cartridge Collector Forums (http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum). Their assistance is greatly appreciated.

Confirmed

Eagle & swastika: Gustloff-Werke, Otto Eberhardt-Patronenfabrik. Hirtenberg, Niederdonau, Austria. Formerly Hirtenberger Patronen Züundhütchen & Metallwarenfabrik A.G until 1938.

1 headed Austrian eagle with shield (First Republic symbol, '19-34): Wollersdorf Patronenfabrik, Vienna, Austria.


2 headed Austrian eagle with shield (Federal State of Austria, '34-38): Hirtenberger Patronen Züundhütchen & Metallwarenfabrik A.G.

A or A over H with diacritic (accent mark): Allami Hadianyaggyar (state factory), Budapest, Hungary. Formerly a private, Jewish firm until taken over by the state. Made to look like they'd come from Hirtenberger.

A or A over H: Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik, Austria.

GR inside circle: Georg Roth, Vienna, Austria.

ML or ML inside shield: Magyar Loszermuvek RT., Veszprem, Hungary, Manfred Weiss until 1932.

W or italicized W or W inside circle: Franz Weiss, Csepel (later Budapest), Hungary

H inside oval or circle: Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik, Austria.

KC inside circle: Keller & Co., Hirtenberg, Austria.

C over A: Sofia Artillery Arsenal, Sofia, Bulgaria.

R inside oval: Georg Roth. Unsure of plant location.

JR: Juraj Roth, Bratislava (German: Pressburg),Czechoslovakia. Juraj Roth is the Slovakian spelling of Georg Roth. The Bratislava Roth plant (Ceskoslovenske Municne a Kovorobne Zavody) changed from the GR marking to the JR marking in 1922. Marking changed to M inside circle marking in '28 or '29. Marking changed to second style of M inside circle in 1931. Bought by BRNO in '34 and moved to Považská Bystrica, where the marking changed yet again to a Z.

SF inside shield or SF inside circle: Société Française des Munitions, (Gévelot S. A.), Place Jules Gévelot, 92310 Issy-Les-Moulineaux, France. Later absorbed into the Nationalised French Ordnance combine GIAT (Groupe Industriel Armaments du Terre---Industrial Group for Land Armaments) in the 1970s. Made under contract to Bulgaria (1903-1904) & possibly to Italy for captured weaponry during WWI.

PA or PA inside circle or PA: Punitra Voina Societate Anonima Romana, Brasov, Romania.

RM: Rheinische Metallwaren-und Maschinenfabrik, Soemmerda, Germany.

RB: Cartoucherie Russo-Belge, Liège, Belgium

P inside circle: Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik, Austria.

M.8: Made by Hirtenberger for export to Italy.

AZF: Artillerie Zeug Fabrik, Vienna, Austria.

PK inside circle: Pocisk Munitions Works, Warsaw, Poland.

AM 40: Gustloff-Werke, Otto Eberhardt-Patronenfabrik (formerly Hirtenberger Patronen Züundhütchen & Metallwarenfabrik A.-G.), Hirtenberg, Niederdonau, Austria.

I: Gewehr und Munitionsfabrik, Spandau, Germany.

SB or SB in circle: Sellier & Bellot, Prague, Czechoslovakia.

C inside circle: Cornides & Cie., St. Veit/Triesting (Cornides & Company of St. Veit and Triesting), St. Viet & Triesting, Austria.

PM : Polte, Werke Magdeburg, Magdeburg, Germany.

M and circle, one unit (circle starts at end of the legs of the M):
Ceskoslovenske Municne a Kovorobne zavody, Slovakia. These stamps were found after 1931. In 1934 it was renamed to Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka , Brno, plant II, Povazska Bystrica. German military code DOU (Waffenwerke Bruenn AG, Werk Bystrica) and the marking became a Z.

M inside circle: same as "M and circle, one unit (circle starts at end of the legs of the M)" except these stamps were made before 1931.

Z: Zbrojovka Brno, Považská Bystrica, Czechoslovakia. Formerly the Juraj (Georg) Roth plant in Bratislava, Czechoslovakia, it was moved to Považská Bystrica after being bought by BRNO in 1934. No longer affiliated with Zbrojovka after 1946 it became the state run factory Povazske Strojarne in Považská Bystrica, Czechoslovakia. Stopped making ammo after the 60's.

MF: Pre-1938 code for Staats-Munitions Fabrik (State Munitions Factory) Woellersdorf, Austria. Absorbed by Gustloff Werke - Otto Patronenfabrik Eberhardt (Hirtenberger) in '38.

Known markings, unknown manufacturers

LP inside circle: La Precisa, Italy. Just means "The Precise ". Often associated with companies in Italy that were involved with some sort of precision work, typically metalworking. Could possibly be a company that later became "SIT-La Precisa" ( Societa Italiana Technomecchanica-La Precisa) of Padova (Padua). Could also stand for Stabilimento Pirotecnico dell' Esercito, Torino.

GH inside circle: Subcontractor for Kynoch, Britain. Unsure of the exact manufacturer, could be Geo. Hopkins & Co.

Unconfirmed
NOTE: Some of these are confirmed as headstamps but not as clip markings. Others are just plain unconfirmed

y: Jagdpatronen Zunhutchen un Metallwarenfabrik, Nagyteteny, Budapest, Hungary.

F-GY: Fegyverger Es Gepygar Raszvenytarsasag, Budapest, Hungary.

SMI: Società Metallurgica Italiana, Campo Tizzoro, Tuscany, Italy. At some point (when??) headstamps from this company became CT (Campo Tizzoro) but as of yet no clip markings with that stamp have been found. Could also stand for: Sudsteirische Metallindustrie GmbH, Austria.

B MF: Berndorfer Metallwarenfabrik, Berndorf, Austria.

E & C: Eisler & Company Patronenhülsen und Kapselfabrik, Vienna & Inzersdorf, Austria.

E & CW: Eisler & Company Patronenhülsen und Kapselfabrik, Vienna & Inzersdorf, Austria.

G & R: Greger & Rosam, Vienna, Austria.

R. Rosam, Vienna, Austria.

R: Caroline Rosmann, Vienna, Austria.

AG: Maschinen und Waggonbaufabrik A.G., Vienna, Austria.

SK: Séraphin Keller-Keller & Co., Séraphin (place? name?), Hirtenberg, Austria. Pre-Hirtenberg name.

K: Dr. Kubenick, Reichenberg, Bohemia (Czechoslovakia).



Unfortunately many of the documents about the Austro-Hungarian empire as well as Hungarian arms and manufacturers seem to have been either lost or destroyed, and a relatively small percentage of paperwork has been translated into English.

If you can be of any assistance in confirming/identifying these marks please post here or PM me. If you come across new markings let us know about those too. Thanks.



RedStarRacer

Thanks I just picked up 6 clips and all are like the ones you have listed but one is not. It is just a "H" inside an oval.


gman53

I have one with an H inside an oval also but another one is stamped RM. I also have two types of W, one straight block letter, one slanted.

Sorry about the crummy picture, closeups are still a challenge for me.


Zeliard

Thanks! I added those to the list under unknown.

I found a place that has two books on CD called Austrian Military Cartridges here, but it costs $25 euro. :/

They have the books as well, but volume 1 is sold out.


Zeliard

Hrrrm, looks like H could be either Hirtenberger or Rheinmetall....
Grabbed this from the international ammunition association's pages:
H Hirtenberger Patronen-, Zündhütchen-und Metallwarenfabrik A.-G., Hirtenberg, Niederdonau, Austria 1
H Rheinische Metallwaren und Maschinenfabrik, Dusseldorf, Germany 1

Nothing mentioned about an oval though.
That's one of the problems, is that the clip markings and head stamps aren't always the same. :/

-EDIT-
Ok, thanks to procrastinator from here and Doc AV on gunboards we've gathered some more info.

GR = Georg Roth, Vienna ( Factory became part of Hirtenberger after WW I)

Austrian double eagle: Patronenfabrik Wollersdorf ( also became part of Hirtenberger after WWI, but a separate factory..."P635" after 1938;

Nazi Eagle: mark applied to all Austrian produced ammo components by either Wollersdorf/Hirtenberger or Hirtenberger proper after 1938; Technically Austria was then part of "Nazi Germany" ("GrossDeutschland") but for collecting/ID purposes it is better to call them "Austrian" .

W= Franz Weiss Budapest,pre & post WWI, but before the use of "AH" (Honved mark) when supplied on Official Hungarian supplies. Weiss was expropriated in the early 1940s as he was Jewish.

I'll add this updated info to the list.


Rick

Very good interesting stuff for us Manlicher/M95 afficandos!

Lets pin this one up top.


Zeliard

W00t!
Got some more info from DOC AV over at the Parallax forums, I've updated the list above with it.


Furthermore, the "W" mark also referred to Wollersdorf factory outside Vienna for some years; as it was the Imperial factory, the Double headed eagle (imperial) was used for most of its production.

H in oval :Hirtenberger patronenfabrik.

The "Circle M" mark is on Bulgarian contract 8x50R ammo made at Bratislava, Czechoslovakia, by a factory which in 1936, became part of the CZ Brno combine, making ammo for export (in 1936, the headstamp became "Z"; before 1936, it was "CircleM".).


Some more information from DOC came in today:

There was an Italian Company (Martignoni, I think) that also made 8x50R during the 1930s for the Italian Colonial Forces; I don't know what their Clip marking was, but it probably included an "M" as well; their headstamp did.
So unless you have a packet (with an obvious label) then either way, I could not say whether the Czech factory used "M in Shield" on its clips, or if this is a Martignoni mark.
Check a Packet of martignoni shotshells to see if their trade mark is "M in shield"??



Unfortunately I can't find much of anything about this, except on municion.org, which showed the heastamps of a Martignoni shotshell as well as one by an Italian company called Maionchi. Maionchi seems to have become a distributor for heavy equipment, and Martignoni is now owned by NobelSports. I emailed Martignoni asking if they'd ever produced a stamp like that, especially for 1895 Steyr clips, so maybe they'll email me back with the info. I did find a picture of an older box of shotgun shells and they did use an M symbol, but these were well newer than WW1 or 2.


Hasso

I just finished shuffling through my clips and came up with two more codes: an S superimposed on a C, and a "KC" inside a circle. Sadly, my ability to post pics is highly limited just now...

Ideas?

-Hasso


Zeliard

Hrrm, not sure yet, but I'll ask around and do some digging.
I believe the KC stands for Keller & Co., Hirtenberg, Austria.

Gonna check with some more knowledgeable people and see if that can be confirmed.
A over C might be Vereinigte Deutsche Nickelwerke A.G., Schwerte/Ruhr, Westfalen, but not really sure about that yet.


Hasso

Zel;

I just learned never to type while that tired; it's an "A" over "C". Sorry!

-Hasso


Zeliard

Thanks once again go out to Doc AV over at Parallax's boards for this information:

"AC" is actually "CA" (Sofia Arsenal" in Bulgarian Cyrillic).
headstamp for most Bulgarian 8x50 cartridges through WW I.
Replaced by "B phi" (VF) for "Voinni Fabrika" ==War or Military factory.


Looked up some more info for this one since the company is still in business.
1878-1891: Artillery Arsenal of Rousse
1891-1924: Sofia Artillery Arsenal
1924-1948 State Military Factory, Kazanlak
1948-1960: Factory 10
1960-1977: United Industrial Plant Friedrich Engels
1977-1990: F. Engels Machine Building Plant
1990-Present: Arsenal, Ltd.


Credit goes to Stewie for identifying the R inside of an oval as a Roth emblem.[/i][/u]
Last edited by Esu_1985 on Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Link to Clip Markings

#3 Post by Esu_1985 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:23 pm

Might as well start bringing it back, Eh?

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Re: Link to Clip Markings

#4 Post by Zeliard » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:46 pm

Oh, you don't have to post all that old stuff, there's a lot of incorrect information in the first pages and I have it all saved. Thanks though. :)
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

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"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon

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Re: Link to Clip Markings

#5 Post by Esu_1985 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:36 am

Ha ha, My bad!

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Re: Link to Clip Markings

#6 Post by Zeliard » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:50 pm

No problem at all :)
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Re: Link to Clip Markings

#7 Post by Zeliard » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:01 pm

So a little while back I decided that the St. Petersburg plant would have been the most likely (if not only) plant that could have made ammunition and clips for the captured Mannlicher rifles. On another forum (http://forum.violity.com/viewtopic.php? ... t=#7328666) I came across posts by hunterf that confirms that these unmarked clips are, indeed, from St. Petersburg. :D It's translated from Russian so the wording is a bit wonky. For example, mark is translated as stigma. ^_^
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MessagePosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 15:26:48 Post subject: Reply with quote
_HANNIBAL_ wrote:
Carl Sebesch
And this one with the stamp of 1916, M 93, RAF is also Mannlicher? Two blunt-nosed without any stigma, clean, and one with such a stigma, but it is a little thinner in diameter from those two blunt-nosed.

If stubborn naked without stigma, then this is St. Petersburg manlicher 8x50R, and if with the stamp of 1916, M 93, RAF and a bullet thinner in diameter - then this Romanian manlicher /
Give photos (side view) of models without stamps and stamps, and their corresponding appearance with hand stamps.
And then in this order, as exhibited photos and misled ....
to come back to the beginning
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MessagePosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 15:28:10 Post subject: Reply with quote
Carl Sebesch wrote:
With sharp bullets .303 British English produced by Greenwood & Batley Leeds. Buried cartridges 8?50? Mannlicher Romanian manufacturer Pirotechia Armatei Bucuresti Regatul României, these cartridges in this caliber with this brand are rare.

It is foreseen that this is a banal St. Petersburg manlicher - it is on them that there is no branding.
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"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon

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Re: Link to Clip Markings

#8 Post by Zeliard » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:29 pm

This is more of a note to myself than any real information. Sorry.

In regards to Russian unmarked clips, Treshkin over at IAA said:
Regarding Russian clips for 8x50R Mannlicher.
Russia produce them, but I am not sure, that manufacturer was St. Petersburg ammo plant. May be this plant produce only ammo in this caliber
Nevertheless another Russian plants produce such clips - at least, Metal products factory Gruszka, city Nahichevan.
Nakhchivan is now the Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic, an enclave inside of Azerbaijan, but previously it was the Nakhichevan Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, within the Azerbaijan SSR of the Soviet Union, 1921–1990, and before that it was Nakhichevansky Uyezd, in the Erivan Governorate of the Russian Empire, 1849–1920.

I can't find a darned thing at all about Gruszka, other than that it means "pear" in Polish. :/
Proud alumni of Transylvanian Polygnostic University. "Know enough to be afraid."

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Re: Link to Clip Markings

#9 Post by Zeliard » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:23 am

Just got some info from Nick over at Gunboards:
If you read Russian there is very good info on the M.93 clip production in Russia. Some are listed in Izhevsk inventory (740,085 - could be made by others), another 24,000 clips were made elsewhere (can't tell exactly where), some were made by the Грушка factory (1,000,000 ordered), some by the "Штампъ" factory, "Братья Сармакешевы" factory (175,000) and Туманов factory (100,000). The clips differed by the color of their finish, some were darker, some were lighter, but I can't tell which factory made them, there are no stamps.
Whoa. He's writing M.93 but I'm fairly certain he means M.90...but will check.
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Re: Link to Clip Markings

#10 Post by Zeliard » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:15 pm

Yep, he meant M.90. So...these clips were made in various Russian plants and unfortunately we really have no way of knowing which. Ah, well...

There is paperwork showing that clips were made at the "Grushka" plant sot hat's been confirmed, at least.
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"Vertroue in God en die Mauser".-Faith in God and the Mauser.

"Send lawyers, guns and money." -Warren Zevon

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