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Lee Enfield No 5

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PhilRich
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Lee Enfield No 5

#1 Post by PhilRich » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:04 pm

About 5 years ago I bought this rifle on Gunbroker. I'd like your opinions on whether the olive green paint job is authentic or not. I'm aware that some rifles were so painted.

The rifle is in good condition with matching serial numbers. I don't see any markings that indicate it went through refurbishment. The serial number was lightly stamped, hence the paint being scraped off to reveal the serial number.

Pictures:


72 usmc
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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#2 Post by 72 usmc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:21 pm

I have 2 JCs that have traces of a slightly different color olive green paint. However, this is found only on the receiver action under the wood. No green paint is present on the outside parts. My 1947 is a bring back like new from Australia. No import mark all matching with excellent wood with proper cartouches. This rifle has a 60% coat of green paint under the wood, the other rifle is a 1944 beat Malayian JC that has 15% green paint under the wood. It has an import CAI mark on the barrel. I have never seen a JC totally painted in green on its outside. Yours would be the first. Your green is unlike my color. It appears to shine to much like non lead new enamel paint. Color id not really dull??? You will also find JC and SMLE bayonets painted green on the metal, but the color is different. Thick black choo choo train paint that comes off easy is found on Indian JCs on the outside. It was applied thick and sloppy as a finish. This is not as durable as the black original Suncorite finish. It is some sort of lead based enamel paint like found on trains or old 1930-40s equipment.

Let me do some digging, I will try to find one of my bayonets that have the correct color as seen on JC and bayonets and get a picture. Most of my stuff is stored away. I have never seen an Enfield JC totally painted in green like yours. I smell a rat. Check its features and be sure its an original and not a made up JC. I have seen the other picture and it certainly is a true JC. It appears you stock was refinished???? Yes No ?? does its wear and patina match the wear of the paint? Does one look fresher or newer than the other or is it a good match for use wear and patina??? here is another with green paint on the outside.
see this one http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... l-matching

So here is a No 4 with original green paint. Not sure if the color in your photos is viewing correct on my old Mac, but this link shows correct color:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=39112

Notice it is not like yours. Color is more dull, and it has a more correct 1940s enamel lead green that I am familiar with. I also notice your screws are all painted over like the rifle was never taken down after the paint job. The other rifles I have seen have the action painted like it was in pieces and the screws and some of the smaller parts were not generally painted. Do you see brush marks or does yours look like it way sprayed on paint finish?? The ones I have seen are brush painted with tell tale brush marks and different thickness in paint over the metal. I also fail to see paint wear on the surface of the trigger and I would think the bolt ball would be worn smooth. Your bands look like they were never removed. Me thinnest too new of a paint job, but I may be wrong. Does the paint extend under the wood ? is it the same color and texture and patina?
It will be interesting what others think. I just do not like the new shine to yours and its color if I am seeing it correct on my screen. Notice the wear and correct patina, is this on your rifle? On that one close up of the bolt it certainly looks good to me that is on that one photo. It might just be the light when taking the photos.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:09 pm, edited 7 times in total.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#3 Post by 72 usmc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:12 pm

here are some pics for color and patina:
62a26457374f6a880447fc51d99be3e68bc77670_r.jpg
DSCN3033-1.jpg
image015.jpg
And your best photo that looks good to me ????
mDm10PQ.jpg
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

72 usmc
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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#4 Post by 72 usmc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:35 pm

My bayonet color in dark room poor light, I need outside light if you want better photos:
IMG_1294.JPG
IMG_1293.JPG
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#5 Post by 72 usmc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:04 pm

I assume you have seen this former sticky about No.5s
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=382
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#6 Post by PhilRich » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:12 pm

I'm having trouble getting this to post, hope it doesn't appear twice.

Due to the effect of the flash and picture processing, the color in the pictures are a bit more yellow than what appears in normal light, the color looks more like the 2nd to last picture I posted of the right side of the receiver. Based on the pictures posted above the paint color used did vary quite a bit.

Notice that the bayonet lug is missing. As can be seen in the picture if it were there originally the removal was very professionally done. On the bottom of the rear sight is a 4 and something that could be either a C or an O. I think if this rifle was being faked the lug would have been left on.

I posted this rifle shortly after receiving it - my email changed so I've just now re-registered. It seems that someone suggested that the lack of a bayonet lug would be for some sort of ceremonial purpose where a bayonet would not be appropriate. Sort of mysterious to me at this point why it's not there.

The serial number of the rifle is PG7520. The last four digits are stamped into the stock vertically next to the butt plate. The parts are marked M47, the receiver M47C = BSA. The receiver and bolt handle have all the characteristics of a genuine No 5. I've not been able to check the serial number to see if it correlates. The stock does not appear to me to have been refinished, It has the reddish tint consistent with aged linseed oil. The wear on the green paint is consistent with "honest wear". The stock does have some light scratches but none of the ususal dings that occur - I think this rifle did not see regular service. Could it have been some sort of parade rifle?

I'd like to get at the bottom of the history of this rifle as much as possible. So thanks for your replies and suggestions. Keep them coming!

Phil

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#7 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:40 am

Look close at the strap and bolt#. I believe that serial number is prefix BG for 1945 not P G. You may have a poorly struck B on a BSA JC. Unfortunately one of the best persons knowledgeable in Enfields failed to see or comment on this rifle. Maybe PM message him and get his input: Alan De Enfield. He just made 2 recent additions yesterday. It's a real JC, I just am not sure of the paint.

The cut bayonet lug is not so odd on former JC that was used for hunting. On most sporterized JC rifles you would see the lug cut and possible holes for a scope.On some the sight ears were also cut so just the sight is showing. At least you do not have the scope holes and cut ears. Jcs have a habit of tearing the cloth liner on a gun case and the lug hooks on the fabric- maybe that is why someone cut it off and painted it all green for use hunting in the rain??? Sort of a far fetched crazy thought. But remember those rifles were around $ 125-150 back in the 1990s, so it was a nice short deer rifle for thick brush in .303 that was cheep. Was the cut and smoothed down area also painted over? Or is there a bare spot like the lug was cut off after the paint job? I have seen sporters with scope holes and cut lugs. Also a 1970s thing was to put your SSN number on the rifle for ID. I have one that a guy scribbed his SSN on the receiver, that really cuts its value. If you find an original number 5 flash unit it can be replaced by a gunsmith. Note repros do not work.
I would love to see what Beer hunter, Alan, Tikai or Tommy have to say about this rifle. :think: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#8 Post by indy1919a4 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:24 am

I do like that color.

I am sorry if I missed this.. But who was or would have been responsible for painting this in the 1st place..??

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#9 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:38 am

Good question. Tropical green paint was applied in WW II war as a protective coating generally just on the metal under the wood. I have not seen any with paint on the outside, but plenty of examples are out there. During the post war rebuild process the green paint was removed except on those that serviced in tropical conditions and never had a FTR.I have 2 JCs with residual paint on the metal under the wood. I have not seen it on SMLEs or number 4s under the wood. But a search shows it is on some examples. Maybe the experts will add some info on this and at what level this was done.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#10 Post by indy1919a4 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:06 pm

Many thanks...

I tell you Gun Collecting can be whacked... (Or So as the young folks talk).. My God I get my Enfield no 5.. I am happy.. Then this comes up.. Gosh I have to get one of these.. I'm Not made of money.... :)

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#11 Post by PhilRich » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:53 pm

I agree, the serial number is prefixed with BG. I'm not yet convinced that the rifle has been sporterized by removing the bayonet lug - still researching to see if there are any valid examples of this.

I just noticed that the lug, if present, would be positioned directly under the sight at the rear of the sight assembly. For this rifle the circumference is perfect and there is a faint part id stamping visible where the lug should be, the letter 4 is clear with what looks like a faint 6. Further review of the rifle shows that 46 is stamped on the right side of the action stock "yoke" or whatever it should be called.

I've added another set of pictures.

I'm thinking that the bayonet lug might have been removed and the rifle updated in 1946. (??!!)



These pictures show the paint color more accurately.
Last edited by PhilRich on Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#12 Post by Tommy Atkins » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:11 pm

I'm not yet convinced that the rifle has been sporterized by removing the bayonet lug - still researching to see if there are any valid examples of this.
Here you go, lug is gone. I don't see an angle that allows us to tell from your posted images. It was a "rectangular protrusion" on the bottom, center of the parallel sided part of the flash hider.
As for the paint I got the impression it was "done locally, in the field", at what level I don't know so there might be quite a bit of variation.
Image

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#13 Post by Tommy Atkins » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:18 pm

You can see it here in the post above about the No5 & visual identification.
Image

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#14 Post by PhilRich » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:59 pm

Please note that I started my last post but delayed posting until after Tommy's post, so my post would more logically be sequenced after his.

In closer examination of the rifle the number 46 was found stamped both on the muzzle brake where the lug was removed and on the right hand side of the action on the butt stock "yoke" as shown in the pictures above.

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Re: Lee Enfield No 5

#15 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:27 pm

Many Jungle Carbines which entered the worldwide sport shooting and collector’s markets in the early 2000s are ex-Police Field Force, identified by a letter “P” marking and two- or three-digit serial on the buttstock. Many of the ex-Malaysian No.5 Mk.Is had the bayonet lug removed.
note the photo of the Malaysian Army unit shows Jungle carbines lacking the bayonet lug. I just can not find the source that stated Malaysians painted the JC????
source is some interesting reading, I got to print this one out :doh: :dance: :clap:

https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/201 ... -wwii-use/


Any evidence of this on that rifle: "identified by a letter “P” marking and two- or three-digit serial on the buttstock"
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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