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Carcano Test Shoot

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CGSteve
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Carcano Test Shoot

#1 Post by CGSteve » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:04 pm

Hello all,

I have what I think is a Carcano M91/28 Moschetto. I used the following links as research: http://candrsenal.com/terminology-a-qui ... le-models/, and http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/c ... odels.html

I have owned this rifle for a while but have only recently taken it out for a test fire. It is one of two I own, the other I think is a M91/41 long rifle.

Image

Test shoot thoughts: Other than from a few members from SRF, I have read many surplus collectors and shooters deride the Carcano rifles. Taking it out for a test run, I have to say I kind of see why. Working the action by hand shows it to not be super smooth, but forgivable. After shooting however, the rifle has "sticky bolt" syndrome similar to the Mosin Nagants. I can work through that, but the second issue isn't so much with the rifle itself, but the source of ammunition. For future reference, rifle was cleaned and well lubricated.

I purchased several clips from Liberty Tree, whose site says they are vintage and steel. Upon feeling, the clips feel more like thin aluminum and seem flimsy. Feeding and locking into magazine is fine, that is until the last round is encountered. Every clip I have seems to dislodge itself inside the rifle when it only has one round left in it. This causes the bolt to push either the round, the clip, or both, forward in an awkward manner causing a malfunction with the round lodged somewhere and not chambering. This only happens with the last round. Perhaps the follower spring needs to be replaced?

I shot it at 25 yards just to see if it was tremendously off or not. At such a close distance, it was not surprising nor impressive for it to be on. Although I only had access to 100 yards, the clip issue was too cumbersome to keep shooting it. But I imagine it would have been like most milsurp rifles zeroed for 200-300 yards to be way off at 100. Ammo used was PPU. I recently ordered some Graf & Sons to take out again some time.

Here are some details of this particular rifle:
Image

I don't think I have anything rare or special here, Terni Arsenal 1938, but maybe some of you experts could offer an opinion. It has the crossed rifles, which in my research I found to mean it was marked for being one of the more accurate rifles. Also, I have circled a propeller looking stamping on the sight. Anyone know what this is? Issued to an air wing maybe? I think I have an original Italian sling for it, though it is SA marked from being sent to the Finns.

Final thoughts: As I am a younger collector, I still like the rifle and feel it needs to be in any WWII rifle collection, despite the less than stellar test shoot. It is a very handy carbine and a decent looking gun overall. It is a welcome distraction from all of my "modern" semi auto rifles. :D

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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#2 Post by Smokey » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:43 pm

The Carcano has an extremely strong action. Disregard the "naysayers" on that issue.
Arguing with someone who denounces reason is like administering medicine to a corpse.

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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#3 Post by vandle » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:31 pm

I'd try another clip before playing with the follower spring.
The clips make a huge difference in the way it feeds.
After market clips vary in quality.

Don't be disheartened after your first outing.
Carcano's benefit from reloading and once you find
the right bullet/load combination she will be a good shooter and a lot of fun.

And you cant kill them. Remember they were making them for nearly 50yrs.
Can't be half bad
Life is tough, tougher if your stupid

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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#4 Post by Snotsucker » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:35 pm

Given the history of the Carcano, I think your issue is more to do with the ammo. Remember Carcano's like those long bullets not the traditional BT rounds of modern ammo. Let the nay sayers flap their lips all they want, those rifles are great little rifles. Congrats on a very nice piece of history.
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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#5 Post by CGSteve » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:03 pm

The clip issue happens with every clip I own. I purchased all from LTC who claim they are original. Seems hard to believe, because this issue cannot be taken into service with the way they are. None of them exhibit any external wear. I think without the weight of a fully loaded one, the clip is so light it just flops around in the mag well. I think I read in another thread someone homemade a clip and that got the job done. Thanks for the replies though! Anyone know what the propeller stamping is?

Unfortunately I don't reload, but I read the Graf's ammo are the correct specs. Hopefully that is the issue.

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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#6 Post by Zeliard » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:05 pm

What are the markings on the clips? That can be used to help tell if genuine.
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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#7 Post by Rapidrob » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:54 pm

A simple test is to push down on the magazine follower with one finger. Push as far into the mag well as you can before your finger touches the side walls. Does it hurt to do it?
If not,the spring is too weak.
A photo of the last round problem will help also. Flimsy clips are Carcano clips. Remember clips are thrown away after use in combat.
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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#8 Post by CGSteve » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:33 am

Hi Rob, I just did the follower test. I can push it a decent way down before the pressure starts to be uncomfortable, but I have thin fingers so I don't immediately touch the sides. I'll try and take a pic of what happens when you try and work the bolt as you would under pressure with one round left when there's day light.

I had no idea the clips were disposed of after use. I assumed they were like enblocs or Mauser clips and can be used again.

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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#9 Post by Horsefriend » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:19 pm

Garand enblocs were normally thrown away during combat as well, the last thing you want troops in combat doing is scrabbling after a spent clip. :/
Scott

Stuff; Some of it is Italian, some of it shoots.

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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#10 Post by virtus » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:12 pm

If you rifle has the "Crossed Rifles" then I would be very careful using the larger bullets that are supplied by Hornady,
You mentioned wanting to order such ammo from Prvi. Most of their ammo is using the .264 bullets but they do load
with the larger .267 Hornady bullet. Be careful what you order, Stay away from light weight bullets that have a boat tail
base. Less bearing surface in the bore and less accurate.

Slug you bore and make sure you will be able to fire that bullet without developing excessive pressure.
Many have reported that the rifles with "Crossed Rifles" seem to have tighter bore diameters. That would be
one of the reasons those rifles were deemed to be more accurate and worthy of the "Crossed Rifles" stamping.
Again slug your bore. You might find that you bore is so tight that you might actually have good results with .264 bulets.
But again go for the .264 160gr Round Nose.

On the clip issue.... try several original clips. Brass if you can find them. Might be somewhat more costly.
Brass seems to be smoother and works better. You see them on eBay and gunbroker.com all the time.

Some of the steel clips will be shinny gun metal blue and some will look like they
were painted with flat black paint. Actually it is a black oxide type finish.

Good Luck

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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#11 Post by slowbob2 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:14 pm

The crossed rifles has nothing to do with it being more accurate , that is just internet junk . It is a complete inspection mark , every so often a rifle was pulled from the line and given a complete inspection to keep track of quality control .

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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#12 Post by Rapidrob » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:36 pm

OK, it does sound like the spring is weak. As for clips,try others.
Now for accuracy I found a real head scratcher. I have "several" Carcano's in my collection. None could even be considered accurate shooters even though the bores and crowns are perfect. I have tried hundreds of .264 and .268 diameter bullet to fit the .266 bores. The .264 bullets ( 160 grain round nose) shoot poorly. The .268 bullets fouled the bores badly and shot poorly. No problems with any pressures. Na-Sayers always say pressures are so dangerous with these bullets. I've never seen it in any of my rifles or carbines.
I shelved all the rifles and left them sit there.
A friend gave me a large number of .262 160 grain pound nose bullets pulled from an unknown ammo decades ago. I figured I had nothing to loose. I loaded up the .262 over that same load and tried them at 500 yards. 1891 Long rifle. Perfect bore and crown. WOW! is all I can say, With the "too small" bullet in the gain twist barrel the rifle shot like a house -of-fire. I was able to hit the man torso ar500 target with every shot at 500 yards. I have never been able to do that with any ammo or any of my loads.
This bullet should NOT work,but it does. Land riding but only barely. Who's a thunk? I sure didn't.
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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#13 Post by virtus » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:14 pm

slowbob2 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:14 pm
The crossed rifles has nothing to do with it being more accurate , that is just internet junk . It is a complete inspection mark , every so often a rifle was pulled from the line and given a complete inspection to keep track of quality control .
And where did you get that information?
Your statement dose not even make sense. Why would they mark a rifle pulled for a closer inspection and then stamp
it differently.

It's been written about numerous times that "Crossed Rifle" marked Carcani have a tighter bore that the non-marked
rifles.

The U.S. would pull rifles with tighter tolerances and ear mark those for National Match Rifles. One closer tolerance
would be the barrel having a better (tighter) bore and a chamber to exact specs..

Quote your source!

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Re: Carcano Test Shoot

#14 Post by slowbob2 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:12 pm

From Italian sources . By fully inspecting every 100 th rifle they can make sure that a problem did not show up in the production line , and if it did it can be tracked down quickly . I have over 100 Carcano rifles with 11 crossed rifle marked guns , There is no bore difference between them . Why would they make a "national Match " gun out of a Cav carbine , or a TS ? That does not even make sense . A "tight " bore does not make a rifle more accurate than about 10 other different things . There has been a lot of things written about many different military rifles that are not true .

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