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Vetterli M70/87/15

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LouisCali
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Vetterli M70/87/15

#1 Post by LouisCali » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:51 am

I got this in a trade valued at $50. The bore doesn't look great though I'm hopeful that it's just caked on grease.

I had read on this site that these are safe to shoot with reduced loads a while back, but have been hearing others where the sleeves have come loose with catastrophic results. I'd like to believe that they're safe however with the right load, as I don't like having rifles that sit and I can't shoot.

There are cartouches on either side of the stock and the one near the serial number is the most clear, though still not legible to my eyes, but maybe someone more in the know can make it out?

When I removed the bolt I noticed that there was a 3 digit number on the bolt body '239' which is also present on the rear sight base. I was thinking that it was just a mismatched bolt but the rear sight base seems to match to it, however the serial number on the barrel doesn't match. The stock as well looks like it once belonged to another rifle.

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slowbob2
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Re: Vetterli M70/87/15

#2 Post by slowbob2 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:39 am

The barrel sleeve coming loose was started by people who did not understand how they where put together . The rear of the sleeve at the chamber is larger in diameter than the bored hole of the barrel , plus it is pinned . There is no way for the whole sleeve to go forward . The only thing that COULD happen is the sleeve down the bore could crack and the front part could start to come out the end . But you would see that starting , or if it was just a small piece it would just exit with the bullet . I have six and have put many rounds through all with no problems . The Italians also sleeved M-91's and the Finns did Mosins , but you do no hear of those " exploding " . Just do not use the Hornady .268 bullet in your reloads .

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Re: Vetterli M70/87/15

#3 Post by PennsylvaniaRifleman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:38 pm

I shoot mine with reduced loads, and enjoy having it in my collection. Like you, I don't like the idea of having rifles I can't shoot. It's a fun and unique piece, and the looks have really grown on me.
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Vetterli-Carcano pair (1).JPG
Vetterli-Carcano.JPG
Carcano collection (1).JPG

Horsefriend
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Re: Vetterli M70/87/15

#4 Post by Horsefriend » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:09 pm

nice family photo!

I have two 80/87/15's and have put quite a few rounds through with no issue Might be a good idea to slug the barrel first, as one of mine is.264 and the other is .267. :/

Has anyone ever tried to correlate the bore variation with the arsenal the rifle was produced at? just wondering is there is a trend towards a certain size related to the aresenal, or if the bore variation is random.
Scott

Stuff; Some of it is Italian, some of it shoots.

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Re: Vetterli M70/87/15

#5 Post by slowbob2 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:33 am

In over 30 years of collecting and measuring Italian rifles [ 100's ] , I have never seen a .264 groove barrel . You might want to see if your barrel is fouled with lead , carbon , corrosion or what ever . You might want to check the zero on your measuring tool . Then slug it again .

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Re: Vetterli M70/87/15

#6 Post by Horsefriend » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:11 pm

The bore is shiny , clean, looks as though it was never fired, outside, not so good. This rifle clearly had a hard life before conversion, and was likely never fired afterward.
I was surprised at the spec, It was very slightly over .264 but my caliper is not reliable at 4 places to the right, maybe .2643? The gentleman I bought it from had never fired it in 30 years and assured me it was non-op. I bought it to restock a Vetterli I picked up and have never gotten around to it.When I am home next I will try to remember to measure the 80/87/15 again

I only have 7 Carcanos, and the rest are .266 and up. The (undersized?) 80/87/15 has only had 2 clips put through it, the .267 has had more than I can count, a friend reloads for me, and it's my favorite at the range for the attention, for actual shooting I think the M41 is my first choice.
Scott

Stuff; Some of it is Italian, some of it shoots.

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Re: Vetterli M70/87/15

#7 Post by LouisCali » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:28 am

PennsylvaniaRifleman wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:38 pm
I shoot mine with reduced loads, and enjoy having it in my collection. Like you, I don't like the idea of having rifles I can't shoot. It's a fun and unique piece, and the looks have really grown on me.
Where did you get your loading information?



And everyone, thanks for the information.

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Re: Vetterli M70/87/15

#8 Post by PennsylvaniaRifleman » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:00 pm

LouisCali wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:28 am
PennsylvaniaRifleman wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:38 pm
I shoot mine with reduced loads, and enjoy having it in my collection. Like you, I don't like the idea of having rifles I can't shoot. It's a fun and unique piece, and the looks have really grown on me.
Where did you get your loading information?



And everyone, thanks for the information.
I detailed my process on a thread on the "extinct" SRF forum, which unfortunately I can't find. Obviously, the usual handloading caveats apply in spades when reloading for the Vetterli-Carcano. I know I'm speaking to the choir here, but remember it's a black-powder design originally engineered for lower pressures than any factory Carcano load. I would also caution to never use the .268 bullets in a Vetterli to ensure pressures remain low. I must have read everything I could find on the net regarding the design, and thoroughly inspected my bore, bolt, and lugs to assure myself. I read up on the Hodgdon 60% rule, and realized that my favorite powder, H4895, seemed ideal for reduced loads. 22 grains of H4895, under the Hornady .264 160 grain "torpedo" bullet, chronographed at 1500 fps (min 1431, max 1529, std. dev. of 21) and gave me acceptable accuracy (About 4" at 100 yards if I recall) with no keyholing. Obviously I couldn't measure the pressure, but from what I deduced from my research, it should be comparable to the original black powder levels. There was virtually no recoil in the big Vetterli, just a pleasant "poof" and no pressure signs indicated on the fired cases.

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Re: Vetterli M70/87/15

#9 Post by Smokey » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:01 pm

Quickload is a very useful tool for reloading projects like this. It has it's limits but used in a reasonable manner (the instructions explain this) it does a good job of working up loads for these old rifles.
Arguing with someone who denounces reason is like administering medicine to a corpse.

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