Your uncommon mark for the day

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RenHoek
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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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In my disorganized photo file, I found another image of the 3 dots showing the gun has been opened up to take 6,5 Greek Mannlicher ammo. The E on this one was struck much better. Ren

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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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This one might be a bit off topic since it's a revolver, but it fits in with a post above. This Bodeo revolver was captured in N Africa by Commonwealth forces. It was then issued to an Egyptian police unit - possibly in Cairo.( I no longer have it - one of the moderizers here talked me out of it! :mrgreen: ) The Arabic marking supposedly reads, "police".
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I mentioned Webley revolvers being issued to Jewish settlement police - here's one of them marked with the Star of David. Ren
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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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Here's one to look for right now - an M91TS made in 1897. Both the Italian and German Carcano books show those made beginning in 1898. The serial number here is A1xx which seems to indicate there could be a few more to be found. I wanted to bid, but it's been reblued which is always a deal killer for me. I could live with the gold plating - not that difficult to remove.

Antique M91TS are always something worth buying. Ren
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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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A painted on (possible police) rack number such as seen on this M91TS isn't all that unusual, but there's a back story. After the war, police departments were given a number of these with badly worn or corroded bores which were used as dedicated tear gas grenade launchers.

The grenade cup was held on by a wing nut arrangement around the front sight. Some of these were then parkerized which is legit. It was a post-war make work project when unemployment was severely high. I'll try to remember to dig out my parked TS for pics one of these days. This one is mine, and the bore is in NRA "pits form a spiral" condition. Ren

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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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This mark is for Napoleone e Vittorio Castelli. (Brescia. NeVC B) They didn't actually make Carcanos but assembled usable ones from parts on hand. Castelli Carcanos are something to watch for in the current batch of imports. As well as I know they turned out at least 25 TS and one cav carbine. I had the cav carbine but a n00b collector talked me out of it.

I sincerely believe there are more floating around to be grabbed by heads up collectors. Besides the few Carcanos they worked over, Castelli also made Bodeo revolvers and Balilla moschettos. Ren

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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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Here's another Bodeo which might not fit in here. But the marks are worth discussing, so maybe the moderizer will let me get away with it.

Seen again is the NeVC B mark which I think is who refurbed it. RIP is the abbreviation for the Italian word meaning essentially 'refurb'. The work was done in 1932, of course.

This revolver was used by Guardia di Finanza which included bank guards, the Italian equivalent of armored car guards and mint guards... pretty much anything to do with money.

Notice also the parkerized finish which is legit. This is one of the guns parked as part of a post WW2 make-work project. It's a good shooter, too! :mrgreen: Ren

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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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This is an oddity seen on a FEW M41 rifles, which didn't have much for markings toward the last of production. Star over crown is the standard M41 marking for those made at Terni. But! This Terni barrel has an Arma Guerra serial number! Which had collectors stumped for quite a while until research showed in late 1943, Allies bombed the Terni plant to rubble.

There was still a pressing need for rifles, though so all usable parts were shipped off to Cremona where they were assembled into usable rifles. This applied to all parts as seen on an ArmaGuerra M41 downstairs the buttplate of which has the tiny TNI Terni identifier.


Star over crown is a dedicated Terni mark
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QZ serial number letter prefix is from the Arma Guerra series.
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M41 so marked were made by Germans when they controlled the plant. Collectors often ask which letter prefix is specific to German manufacture. A German document (I'll have to look the title up and post it later) showed about 40,000 M41s made when they had the plant. Knowing each serial number letter block was for 9,999 pieces, it appears German made M41s will be in the QV (approximately) to QZ which was the last M41 letter block.

Germans "acquired" the plant when the Italian king surrendered Italy to the Allies in 1943. That being considered a serious breach of etiquette, the German army set about seizing arms and armories... and the Arma Guerra arms plant. Ren
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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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Star in a circle is a mark dedicated to Reppublica Italiana - a short-lived post war Italian Gov't system. I have written in my notes (take notes, friends!) it existed in the late 40s. 1948 for sure and possibly part of 1947.

During that period, Italy began use of M1 Garands and BM-59 auto loaders, so it's quite uncommon on Carcanos. Does it add to the value? Probably not to the extent an owner of such - like me - would prefer. But always watch for it. Ren

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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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This one is REALLY uncommon. I presently only know of two in America. I've one, and my friend/publisher has the other. RE pretty much has to be for Regio Esercito, or Royal Army. The mark is believed to be connected with Italian colonial troops in east Africa. I've asked on Italian and American sites but so far there's nothing in print about it in either language.

A *theory* is that colonial levies got rifles with the AOI cartouche while dedicated army units had their rifles branded with RE. Supposedly, this was to reduce theft... but there are a number of ways to get around that. One AOI rifle in my colonial grouping had the cartouche covered with a leather band which nearly obliterated the mark from wear. (Oddly, it REEKED of nicotine)

This one is a 1914 Terni with no import marks or duffel cut. If you ever have a chance to grab one, don't haggle the price too forcefully - you may well never see one again. I watch daily for such things on American and Euro auction sites, and have never seen another. Renaldo - I'd rather be lucky than good - vaan der Hoek

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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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With the recent influx of surplus Carcanos, here's one to watch for on an M91/24. MIDA Brescia jumped in to help make rifles in 1917 and 1918. Not widely known is that they made a FEW rifles in 1916 which are marked M.I.D.A. as shown with no Brescia added. This is also a much different font that the Mida Brescia rifles. A friend in Italy with an extensive data base estimates only around 200 were marked like this.

This is the only one I've ever seen. It was a badly cut down and shortened gunborker M91 long rifle. I really wanted to bid, but rare junk is still just junk.

Watch for it on M91/24s! Ren


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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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The chances of ever finding one marked like this are pretty much in negative numbers. But I'll include it here since it might not be the only one in existence. This M91/24 has been branded with the Albanian crest. Must have been for King Zog's personal guard! :lol: :mrgreen:

Okay, I'm joking, but the possibility might exist. I'd break a piggy bank to get one! Ren

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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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Thanks for posting, love your work
Please keep them coming
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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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Thank you for the kind words! Much of what I'm posting won't be seen anywhere else. For several years I've searched for unusual marks and saved images. Some will be in my next book... some will just be here. Time will tell. Ren
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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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Since we've discussed Albanian Carcanos, here's an article relating to that. Depending on your browser, you might not be able to see pics, but the information should still be visible. Ren

http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB3 ... 25&t=10136
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Re: Your uncommon mark for the day

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I think everyone here is aware of the 4UT mark seen on Beretta handguns and occasionally on Carcano parts. Gun show experts will tell you it's a German mark since Germany used a lot of Beretta pistols. Not true - it's strictly an Italian mark. It's the abbreviation for "4th Technical Office" and shows the gun or part has been inspected and "takes the gauge" - or is within specification.

Not well known is that there were other technical offices. Seen here is the 5UT mark on a Brixia mortar bomb. Is 5UT dedicated to ordnance? I'm not able to say for sure. I rooted through my box o' bombs and none of the others had the mark. A well-known collector and author told me he has seen 2UT on leather gear such as saddles and scabbards but hasn't word on others. I looked on all my Italian field kitchen gear and Breda MG feed strips... no UT marks.

So if any of you happen to see other technical office marks, you can reply here and add to the knowledge base. Ren


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