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Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

Gew88, Gew98, Kar98 etc.
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72 usmc
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#76 Post by 72 usmc » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:58 am

These are covered in the main body , but if you have a nice example please show close up views of all the defacings , degree of matching parts, overall condition- the more macro pictures the better. Show import mark and receiver markings. Please, please post. We need a few more examples showing the details close up. I did not see yours in the old 20 April 2015 Balkan Mauser post from the pre crash. Only mine , stan61 & smoothbores example with pictures remain intact- a total of 3. Please post/photo document your K98k Balkan/Albanian example here- Lots of pics are needed. As always thanks ffuries. See page 2 for Balkan info. Page 6 is awaiting your many photos :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :dance: I can not wait too see it: here is a verbal description of ffuries K98K
total mix-master on SN's and Waffenamts. The stock has an interesting repair, that gives it character. The butt-plate which is in the white has been painted orange on the backside, all the Waffentamts and Swastikas on the barrel and receiver have been scrubbed (Not pinged or lined out but ground off). There are Waffenamts on the rest of the other smaller parts.

What I have figured out I think! Late war stamped front band, late war stamped floor plate, pre-early war milled trigger guard with capture screws. Bolt has the oval vent holes, stock has the take down washer, cleaning rod hole and the front band/nose cap has the bayonet lug. The stock is an early/mid war stock, which would not be on a DOT 44 rifle....Correct or incorrect?

Found a very lightly EP'd SN on the bolt stem, almost missed it. There is no X on the receiver anywhere! The stock has a SN in the barrel channel and on the hand guard. The original SN on the bolt was 5709 with a letter, this is on the root of the bolt handle. All the other parts are stamped 1630 with what looks like a very very faint EP'd 1630 on the bolt stem (but also looks like other numbers when looked at from different angles, magnifying glass doesn't make it easier or clearer to read).

The rifle doesn't seemed to be re-blued, painted, hot dipped like the Russians did. From what I am told it doesn't fit the Russian captured, Romanian captured, Yugoslavia captured look! There is no bolt SN engraved onto the top of the bolt like Russian captures normally have.
Waffenamts:

Barrel band Waffenamt 655, Nose cap Waffenamt 214, Take down washer Waffenamt 214, Floor plate Waffenamt 135, Barrel band spring Waffenamt 135, Trigger guard assembly Waffenamt WaA63 and WaA83 (Maybe 63 poorly struck), Magazine follower Weimar Eagle 45

Serial numbers:

Barrel: 2802 ah, Rear sight, rear sight base: 2802, Rear sight slide: 02, Rear barrel band: 3578, Nose cap: 77, Trigger guard/housing: 3783, Magazine floor plate: 7819, Magazine follower: 31, Bolt body/handle root: 5709 and unknown single letter, lined out, Bolt safety catch, cocking piece, bolt sleeve: 1630, Bolt stem: 1630 very lightly EP’d, Handguard: 5082.

Other stampings:

Shield Dot 13, EV,
GPC W Hurley NY import stamp (Gun Parts Corporation aka Numrich)
This Bulgarian/Balkan rifle has been documented below the next two posts on this page. See ffuries many fine photos.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#77 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:59 pm

Actually after looking at the so called RCs from Nam, I am really not convinced that these are RUSSIAN CAPTURES . In the second link there are more close up photos that provide a few hints as to a possible source. We do not have close ups of the bolt numbers, bands, nor the serial # inside of the wood. I can not see the total top of the bolts, nor any serial numbers on the bolts- information about the bolt is critical to help provide evidence as to the three rifles source. I see no X mark on the barrel or receiver and the author states it is missing on all three rifles. I can not see evidence of the stock having the typical RC serial number deeply stamped on the left side of the stock. It does appear that two have a 3 digit number ??? (hard to see, the pics do not enlarge on my computer) stamped on the stocks and this is the best attributable evidence for their RC nature. What I do see are capture screws and miss matched floor plates. What I do not see are electro penciled markings on the bolt or any of the other visible smaller parts, nor do I see scribed electro penciled line outs to any of the existing serial numbers. Granted it would provide more conclusive evidence if we had views of the bands and bolts and if we knew whether the bolts that apparently have no electropenciled serial number are matching to the rifle or if they are matching to themselves. We also are lacking information on the degree of matching parts on these three rifles. Two have what appear to be a darker stock and a darker blue as seen on RCs, but the other does not. No attribute information is presented on why the author thinks these are Russian Captures rather than French Capture or possible Bulgarian/Romanian Captures. Consequently, we have no evidence in the form of written descriptive or pictorial attributes that might provide the probable source as these three K98ks. After thinking about the Nam RC post by Saigon 1965 and looking at his photos in both links; I really see NO clear photographic evidence that these three rifles are Russian Captures.

The most common Russian Capture attributes are not present on these examples. I see no elcetro written numbers or line outs, the bolt has no electro, rewritten, force matched serial # and locking screws are still present. I do not know if all the metal parts are mixed- are these rifles mix masters, or almost all matching? This is the evidence I do see. I see a possible RC black and stock color and an odd, faintly stamped 3 digit serial number on the left side of two stocks which I can hardly see and can not tell if it matches a serial number on the rifle's receiver. I wish we knew if these are true mix masters RC rifles. If these rifles are almost all matching except for the bolt and maybe a few (1 or 2 of the other parts) like the floor plate; and given the blue is really not a true typical Russian black (I can not tell from the photos) and only two of the stocks have a kind of Russian dark color, I am thinking these may be FRENCH CAPTURES rather Russian, but more likely Bulgarian.

My French capture/ french re-work is all matching except the bolt. I have only seen a few at gun shows. My French K98k has a stamped line out on one small part: the bolt release. Its stock is a similar dark color as seen in two of the Nam examples. However, I do not know about or have knowledge of the Legion's use of French K98ks. Did all of the early use K98ks have a French Capture altered stock with the U shaped cut and French sling bar as seen on most French, more recent import marked K98s seen at gun shows? Some French captures also may or may not have a hex shaped stacking rod and a French star stamped on the receiver. See the next post reviewing a French capture's attributes.

Did the late 1940s or early 1950s French Legion K98ks always have the French sling cut in the stock? Did the French Foreign Legion use K98s in Nam? I though most had Mas 36s? I do not know? What I see are three stocks missing the most obvious trait of a French Capture - The French modification to the German K98 for their French Berthier/Mas 36 wide sling by cutting a U shaped sling groove and adding a French sling bar behind the German take down washed. So if all French capture K98s always had the stock modifications, then they can not be French Captures. No real attributes suggest French Captures that I have observed. Does any one have knowledge of the early use of French Captured K98s ? What did these K98s look like? Are they the same (have the same attributes) as the ones seen at gun shows?

From the above thoughts, I am leaning more to a Bulgarian /Romanian source for the Saigon1965 rifles. The examples seem to be more matching and lacking Russian RC and French Capture/re-work traits. They have more of a flavor of a like new, Bulgarian Capture rifle, not like the beat , poor condition of ones seen at current gun shows. BUT, and this is a huge BUT, :hand: :hand: :snooty: :arrow: Why are all the Nazi marks intact? The latest Balkan/Romanian Captures have the most common key attribute: this is the fact that all the dirty birds and most Nazi markings are pinged--- and I mean, really pinged out. They really wanted to destroy all those dirty birds and othe Nazi stampings on the K98. These Nam examples have all markings intact? So what are these rifles that Saigon 1965 posted ?
Anyone got ideas?
Are they odd RCs? I guess only more data on these rifle- the nature of the bolt and parts, are they mix masters or mostly matching, do the faint stock #s match the receiver? Why are there 3 digit numbers on the stock? the stock stamped numbers are the best attribute suggesting a RC origin.

I'd suggest these could be almost new K98s when captured and were only checked by Ivan at the rebuild factory since they were almost brand new not needing repair, Ivan just cleaned, then Xed, and wrote a serial number on the top of the bolt and stamped it also on the left side of the stock? No shellac or light shellac over an original matching stock. German cartouches intact. A mostly matching K98 RC. I have seen two RCs like this, but why the missing x, and electro pencil on the bolt? Very odd.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#78 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:48 pm

An Example of a French Capture
svwmb1-1024x173.jpg
These are the attributes commonly seen on a French Capture. This one sold recently, see link and a few pictures are posted showing the attributes of a French capture . Source of all pics are K98link shown below. Pictures are reposted so they are fixed if the link disappears. see https://www.pre98.com/shop/gone-but-not ... ser-rifle/
A VERY RARE AND SELDOM EVER SEEN 1945 PRODUCTION POST WAR FRENCH 98K RIFLE WITH THE RARE SVW MB CODE. THE RIFLE IS WAFFENAMTED AND STAR PROOFED AS WELL. THESE RIFLES WERE MADE TO THE FRENCH TASTE IN SERVICE RIFLES WITH THE FRENCH STACKING ROD AND SLING ARRANGEMENT WHICH GIVES THESE RIFLES A VERY DISTINCTIVE LOOK FOR A 98K. THESE RIFLES WERE ACTUALLY COMBAT USED IN INDO CHINA BY UNITS INCLUDING THE FRENCH FOREIGN LEGION. THEY WERE ALSO USED BY THE WEST GERMAN BORDER GUARDS AS WELL, SO THEY HAVE A GOOD HISTORY OF COLD WAR SERVICE.
Screen Shot 2018-03-24 at 3.28.50 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-03-24 at 3.29.13 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-03-24 at 3.29.35 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-03-24 at 3.29.58 PM.png
ANOTHER French Capture re work ( :arrow: many great close ups- a well documented specimen) : From Gunboards reference library, A MUST SEE http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?234274
note this above specimen has no star proof nor the hex French stacking hook
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#79 Post by ffuries » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:27 pm

Ok here's my K98k that the group decided was a Balkan Captured. It's a DOT 44 and an interesting mix-master to say the least. The stock is not refinished like Russian Captures are, although it shows some shellacking but it's worn away where the rifle is handled most at. The metal is not refinished in anyway, there is a buttstock repair that is held together with wooden pegs. Rifle still had capture/locking screws in the trigger guard, but was missing the cleaning rod, and sight hood. Other than the few Waffenamts here and there, the Eagle and Swastika stampings have been completely scrubbed with what appears to be a soft hand and grinder. Rifle appears to have been well used and abused during its lifetime.

No Russian X on the reciever/barrel, no signs of buttstock having a SN added to it. No other markings other than SN in handguard channel on the stock.

Waffenamts:

Barrel band Waffenamt 655, Nose cap Waffenamt 214, Take down washer Waffenamt 214, Floor plate Waffenamt 135, Barrel band spring Waffenamt 135, Trigger guard assembly Waffenamt WaA63 and WaA83 (Maybe 63 poorly struck), Magazine follower Weimar Eagle 45

Serial numbers:

Barrel: 2802 ah, Rear sight, rear sight base: 2802, Rear sight slide: 02, Rear barrel band: 3578, Nose cap: 77, Trigger guard/housing: 3783, Magazine floor plate: 7819, Magazine follower: 31, Bolt body/handle root: 5709 and unknown single letter and lined out, Bolt safety catch, cocking piece, bolt sleeve: 1630, Bolt stem: 1630 very lightly EP’d, Handguard: 5082.

Other stampings:

Shield Dot 13, EV,
GPC W Hurley NY import stamp (Gun Parts Corporation aka Numrich)
Attachments
DSCN5592a.jpg
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Last edited by ffuries on Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#80 Post by ffuries » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:29 pm

More pics....
Attachments
DSCN5598a.jpg
DSCN5597a.jpg
DSCN5595a.jpg
DSCN5594a.jpg
DSCN5593a.jpg
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#81 Post by ffuries » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:30 pm

More pics....
Attachments
DSCN5603a.jpg
DSCN5602a.jpg
DSCN5601a.jpg
DSCN5600a.jpg
DSCN5599a.jpg
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#82 Post by ffuries » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:33 pm

More pics....
Attachments
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DSCN5608a.jpg
DSCN5607a.jpg
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#83 Post by ffuries » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:35 pm

More pics....
Attachments
DSCN5613a.jpg
DSCN5612a.jpg
DSCN5611a.jpg
DSCN5610a.jpg
DSCN5609a.jpg
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#84 Post by ffuries » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:36 pm

Last of the pics....
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DSCN5618a.jpg
DSCN5614a.jpg
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#85 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:48 pm

Thank you, I assume the dirty birds on the receiver have all been removed and rather neatly done at that. Odd that they are removed so finely and that the rifle is such a mixmaster. This fine specimen certainly widens the range in Bulgarian K98s attributes . It is interesting that its parts consist of such a mix of serial numbers when most of these I have seen are almost all matching except for the bolt. Likewise the careful grinding used to remove the Nazi markings is out of the normal where the markings are generally removed by many stab like hits. But the overall beat, worn stock and metal condition and lack of RC attributes fall right in line with the Buligarian/Balkan Captures. It is also complete with a mismatched bolt. Yours is an interesting example and I like that stock repair. I do not see this on many K98Ks. The Russians did minor repairs, but a damaged stock like that would have been tossed in the furnace to heat the building. Few RCs have stock repairs that well done or that extensive. I see that the handguard has different numbers from the action and it is a different color: a replacement handguard. Generally these rifles have the same action and wood with matching stock numbers; but given its damage, it is easy to see why the handguard was replaced. Mine also had the reddish paint as a rust protector under the butt plate like your example. That stock has some history to it. Like all of these Balkan Capture imports, they saw long term use. I love that rifle. A fine example. These old beaters are getting had to find at recent shows.
Here is a pic of what the receiver may have looked like and the three markings that were removed. A example from an online source of a DOT 44 receiver with markings intact:
serial.JPG
source :
http://www.latewar.com/html/dot.htm
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:27 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#86 Post by ffuries » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:52 pm

72 usmc wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:48 pm
Thank you, I assume the dirty birds on the receiver have all been removed and rather neatly done at that. Odd that they are removed so finely and that the rifle is such a mixmaster. Here is a pic of what the receiver may have looked like and the three markings that were removed. A example from an online source of a DOT 44 receiver with markings intact:
serial.JPG
source :
http://www.latewar.com/html/dot.htm
.

As I remember I didn't find any Dirty Birds on it at all, just the various Waffenamts. I thought it was a Russian Capture at first, but yall shot that down pretty quick, and the collective agreement was it was a Balkan Capture, that had a long rough life. She's been rode hard, but she has lots of character, hence the reason I love it so much.

IIRC there was mention that the stock repairs was reminiscent of Yugoslavia handy work, but the rifle itself negates a Yugoslavia background. She's truly unique that is for sure, guess I have a thing for the ugly ducklings.....

I paid $270.00 for it in June 2015, well actually $370.00 but it came with a $100.00 worth of commercial ammo.
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#87 Post by 72 usmc » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:44 am

Thank you
Here is a very interesting seldom seen link to Bulgarian Partisan Rifles that includes picture photo mosaics where each picture enlarges if clicked on. There are 2 examples of K98 mausers. PARTISAN RIFLES
Welcome to Partisan Rifles! This site is dedicated to rifles from the Balkans region - the former Yugoslavia (Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia), Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Romania, and also Italy, Austria, Hungary, Russia, and Turkey - especially those rifles with soldier graffiti on them. I cover anything I can get my hands on, which is mainly WWI to WWII, though there are many examples from the earlier Balkan Wars, and recent Croatian and Bosnian Wars. While not technically in the Balkans, I have found some fascinating rifles from the Spanish Civil War, and will include those also.

Balkans-region rifles from the 1800's and earlier have shown me that decorating rifles was a common practice, possibly stemming from Turkish or Middle Eastern decorations. This tradition has been carried on well into the 1990's. A number of the region's rifles bear initials, names, cities, dates, kill counts, and political symbols on them. Most of these markings were made by non-government irregular forces, or militia members. These markings create a historical journey by showing who used the rifle, where and when. For example, the above rifle was most likely captured from the Italians by Tito Partisans in WWII.

I plan to keep this site constantly updated with my acquisitions, or with new information I learn. Please comment on anything you see, or information you have; I strive to be as precise as possible. And if you would let me showcase your firearm, or even sell one of your firearms to me, please contact me at keergyriah@gmail.com. I can also be found at gunboards.com as the member "hairygreek."
I theorize that most, if not all, of the "Balkans M91" rifles were imported from Romania, and the features they exhibit were done during the Cold War. The main identifying feature is the scrubbed/peened Tsarist eagles and barrel markings. Most Romanian Mauser VZ24's have scrubbed King Carol II crests, and some German Mauser K98k's have peened markings, both likely coming from Romania. As far as nearby countries, Mosin M91's observed in Bulgaria by certain collectors bore intact crests, and thus show that defacing the crest was not a Bulgarian activity.
Unusually, this rifle (The K98added by me) has a CAI import mark on the barrel. Normally the expectation is that Tito rifles were imported pre-1968. This rifle may have been imported with the similarly imported Gew98m on this site, and probably came from Albania. If it had come from Romania, the Nazi eagles would have been peened away; from Yugoslavia, it would have been refurbished, or imported as-is pre-'68; from Greece, been imported pre-'68.
:idea: :arrow: home page http://partisanrifles.weebly.com
see k98 http://partisanrifles.weebly.com/mauser ... -partisans
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#88 Post by indy1919a4 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:48 am

Any clue how many Israeli Belgian Contract rifles were delivered??? Any Idea how may Czech rifles were Delivered???

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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#89 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:37 am

I have not seen any references that have this info. Maybe someone can point us in the right direction that can read the original Czech references.
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Re: Military Surplus k98ks commonly found at gun shows

#90 Post by 72 usmc » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:20 pm

The last gun show was real sparce on K98 mausers. No RCs, no Israeli K98s. Over 500 tables :snooty: :snooty:
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