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French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

Les Fusils Militaires Français, Chassepot, Gras, Lebel, Berthier et MAS 36
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indy1919a4
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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#31 Post by indy1919a4 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:29 pm

vandle wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:16 pm
Thanks for the link
Very interesting subject.

Have you shot it yet?

Oh heavens it seems like ground hog day ha ha ha ha ha

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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#32 Post by indy1919a4 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:46 pm

Mon Ami see if this helps at all...

Skip to about 3:18, and to a lesser level 8:20 he will close up on the open bolt from above..

Now not having the same angle from your rifle.. Does his extractor stick out a little more than yours..??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGcAU0uDt_0

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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#33 Post by indy1919a4 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:53 pm

another.. Now this guys accent it tough..

But if you can freeze frame 9:36.. You can capture a fair view of his bolt and the extractor..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRVDc04GvXo

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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#34 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:50 pm

The French guy is too fast and a freeze is blurry. Here are some from the demilled rifle video. What I need are some views of another bolt and info on how the bolt functions on pick up. No action from gunboards, the French collectors must be Christmas shopping :occasion-santa: :occasion-santa:

These views look similar to my bolt head. The same bent-in look and the left rail cut is also identical in the lower photo.
Screen Shot 2018-11-25 at 4.32.00 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-11-25 at 4.32.18 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-11-25 at 4.32.18 PM.png (240.21 KiB) Viewed 2996 times
Screen Shot 2018-11-25 at 4.33.15 PM.png
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#35 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:31 pm

The Forgotten Weapons.com video is better with freeze shots. But he does not chamber his rounds . However, all the pictures look just like my rifle- the side wall cuts and the extractor length seem the same ????? Need some actual specs, what is the extractor from--a normal Berthier???, and how does the bolt pickup a round from the magazine.

Here are some freeze shots:
Screen Shot   1.png
Screen Shot   2.png
Screen Shot  3.png
Screen Shot  4 .png
Screen Shot  5.png
Last edited by 72 usmc on Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#36 Post by indy1919a4 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:38 pm

72 usmc wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:31 pm
The Forgotten Arms video is better with freeze shots. But he does not chamber his rounds . However, all the pictures look just like my rifle- the side wall cuts and the extractor length seem the same ????? Need some actual specs, what is the extractor from--a normal Berthier???, and how does the bolt pickup a round from the magazine.


Go to 11:00 the round slips in under the extractor.. This was done at home also.. But this shows it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrKN31COHxY

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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#37 Post by indy1919a4 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:30 pm

72 usmc wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:50 pm
The French guy is too fast and a freeze is blurry.
You can get an unblury one if you get at 9:36 and right as the bolt is nearly all the way to open But to my eye his looked like the other..

I would still like to meet the sick puppy that saw demilling them as a good idea :?
[/quote]

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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#38 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:46 pm

I got a firm answer. Mine functions like the others.
1886 Lebel states:
I just tested mine and it is exactly like in your pictures you posted, the extractor does not pick up the rim into the chamber, it only goes into it when you fully close the bolt, so it snaps into the rim then.
So it was a modification that did not pick up the cartridge like a rimmed 8mm Lebel cartridge Berthier that uses an enblock mannlicher clip. To ease the force required to engage the bolt to chamber and the extractor to snap over the cartridge, the rounding of the cartridge edge as I have shown in the photos makes it easy to slip over the rim on the rimless 7.5 Mas cartridge. I am still going to order an extra bolt head to see if the extractors are the same. No one seems to know if the extractor is unique to the Berthier 1907/15-34 or the same as used on the Berthier 1907/15 models. Heck, I am not even sure if the same extractor is used on all models of the Berthiers ???? On the M1934 conversion maybe the extractor is a beefed up version or heat treated differently to withstand snapping over the 7.5 Mas cartridges squared edge. After rounding the edge of the 7.5 Mas cartridge, the bolt closes down with less force and still extracts. I will test fire to see how this brass modification actually extracts after being fired. MANY THANKS to Patrick. Semper Fi
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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#39 Post by 72 usmc » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:20 pm

With 47 reported rifles, I want to make the extractor work with ease. I still have to get some Prvi and see if that brass is easy on chambering or the same as the French military 7.5 brass. So a bolt head extractor looks like this in a working rifle.

( I would like to state that an unmodified, military surplus 7.5 Mas cartridge fits the bolt head just perfect if the cartridge is fit under the extractor on this bolt when removed from the rifle. EXTRACTOR Spacing seems right. It holds a cartridge just like a Mauser bolt would. You can shake the bolt and the shell will not fall out. Fit seems great There is very little wear shown on this bolt or rifle.)
IMG_1679.jpg
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IMG_1678.jpg
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Last edited by 72 usmc on Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#40 Post by vandle » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am

72 usmc wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:46 pm
I got a firm answer. Mine functions like the others.
1886 Lebel states:
I just tested mine and it is exactly like in your pictures you posted, the extractor does not pick up the rim into the chamber, it only goes into it when you fully close the bolt, so it snaps into the rim then.
So it was a modification that did not pick up the cartridge like a rimmed 8mm Lebel cartridge Berthier that uses an enblock mannlicher clip. To ease the force required to engage the bolt to chamber and the extractor to snap over the cartridge, the rounding of the cartridge edge as I have shown in the photos makes it easy to slip over the rim on the rimless 7.5 Mas cartridge. I am still going to order an extra bolt head to see if the extractors are the same. No one seems to know if the extractor is unique to the Berthier 1907/15-34 or the same as used on the Berthier 1907/15 models. Heck, I am not even sure if the same extractor is used on all models of the Berthiers ???? On the M1934 conversion maybe the extractor is a beefed up version or heat treated differently to withstand snapping over the 7.5 Mas cartridges squared edge. After rounding the edge of the 7.5 Mas cartridge, the bolt closes down with less force and still extracts. I will test fire to see how this brass modification actually extracts after being fired. MANY THANKS to Patrick. Semper Fi
So what you are saying is that the 7.5mm Berthier is uncontrolled feed, unlike a mauser
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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#41 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:35 am

So what you are saying is that the 7.5mm Berthier is uncontrolled feed, unlike a mauser

It seems so. I think it's because of the limitations in the magazine sidewall and the metal removed in the receiver. It was or seems designed for a rimmed cartridge then switched to a rimless. The cartridge pops up and the sides of the receiver seem to be too wide and allow the cartridge not grab into the bolt face and extractor jaw. I thought this odd and unlike any bolt action rifle I have seen -- be it an Enfield, Mosin, or other Berthier. That is why I wanted to see how another modified rifle m1934 worked. Patrick is the expert at gunboards and he tried his rifle and it functions the same way. There are only about 47 reported. About 63,000 made. It is a hard to find specimen in the U.S. So I think they would have liked to add metal to the sides of the receiver so it would function as a Mauser, but they had to deal with what they had after the receiver was milled for the original 8mm Lebel round and then cuts made to place the box magazine into the rifle/receiver. This left a larger area in the receiver so the cartridge just pops up and kind of just gets pushed to the front a short distance until it chambers, then the bolt head is centered around the inserted 7.5 cartridge and can grab onto the back of the shell with the extractor by pushing the bolt down and snapping the extractor over the back edge of the cartridge. The side rail that the cartridge slides under on the left side seems too short allowing the cartridge to pop up too soon. It appears to me that if it was longer allowing the cartridge tip to start to enter the chamber, the cartridge may have slid under the extractor and onto the face of the bolt. You can see this lip on the left side on some of the photos. As soon as the rear of the cartridge slides past this lip it pops up to soon in my opinion. All my speculation. :roll: :roll:
Screen Shot 2018-11-25 at 4.33.15 PM.png


What I now know is both my rifle and Patrick's function in the same way/manner. They both have the same action. They cause the extractor to have to snap over the edge of the cartridge. They DO NOT FEED ONTO THE BOLT FACE UNDER THE EXTRACVTOR> :o :think:
We shall see if another owner can chime in and report how his or her rifle operates. I do not know how to make a video or post a utube. Maybe the kid next door knows. It would be interesting to show actually how the bolt and magazine works while chambering a round.
Lets see if another owner reports how the rifle functions. However, Patrick and Kelt are the French experts on line for the French weapons so I guess I got to go with Patrick on this one. Maybe a modification problem that could not be solved unless they made a new receiver. All speculation on my part. Maybe the receiver inside was wide for the Lebel cartridge. The 7.5 Mas cartridge is longer and more narrow. See some of the links about this M1934 modification. It was a costly modification due to so many new parts. Maybe Kelt will have some knowledge to impart to us. I am not sure if he owns a Mle 1907/15-34.

This is the best link for pictures of the parts and modifications:
http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FR%20Mle ... 20M34.html

To shoot mine just a wee bit, I am modifying my brass cartridge by rounding the edge so the extractor does not work so hard. I do not want to break the extractor. Like I said, a few shots are fine- just for the pleasure and feel of the rifle. With an unmodified military 7.5 Mas cartridge it's like forcing the bolt on a single loaded, Berthier while not using the enblock clip. About the same amount of pressure is needed. Too much in my mind. After rounding the edge on the 7.5 brass as I have shown, the bolt operates about normal and it reduces the pressure to close the bolt by about one half--much easier on the extractor. I am not sure if I will have extraction problems due to this rounded cartridge edge on the extraction of a fired case. We shall see, I doubt it. There is plenty of meat for that extractor to grab onto. I am also going to get some Prvi ammunition and see if it chambers any easier than the military brass. For any target shooting I will use one of my Mas 36 rifles- a fine weapon and a pleasure to fire.
Last edited by 72 usmc on Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#42 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:50 am

I just got back with a new box of Prvi 7.5 Mas. The rims look the same and both are hard to chamber. I would say they are about equal. But the Prvi is boxer primed and can be reloaded. Since I have 3000 rounds of 1970s,7.5 Mas military berdan primed ammo, I'd rather mess up/ modify a few boxes and just toss the cases since I do not reload berdan primed brass. Such a rare rifle is not a common shooter.
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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#43 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:17 pm

The bolthead extractors are different on the Mle 1907/15-1934 carbine and the Mle 1907/15 long rifle. These are my photos of my bolt heads. The first picture is the black/dark, 7.5 Mas Berthier modified carbine bolthead, and the second picture is the brighter colored bolthead, from the Berthier long rifle chambered in 8mm Lebel . This order is maintained in all views. My conclusion based on the comparison of the two different boltheads-- The modified carbine (Mle 1907/15-1934 ) and the standard long rifle Berthier ( Mle 1907/15) are different. Break an extractor on a Mle 1907/15-1934 carbine and I believe you are out of luck. Ha , try to find a new extractor :doh: :doh: :snooty: :lol: :cry: :confusion-helpsos: :confusion-helpsos: :confusion-shrug: :confusion-shrug:

Views of the top lip -wider on the long rifle
IMG_1693.jpg
Thickness of the jaw- thicker on carbine 1934 and thinner on the long rifle
IMG_1692.jpg
Screws different size, a longer shaft to set into the carbine bolt
IMG_1701.jpg
Carbine bolthead squared back key set
IMG_1699.jpg
Long rifle bolthead tapered back key set
IMG_1700.jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:12 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#44 Post by 72 usmc » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:30 pm

More pictures of the bolthead differences. These are my photos of my boltheads.

The space/distance from extractor jaw to bolt face. 1907/15-34 first, second picture is a long rifle 1907/15 bolthead
IMG_1697.jpg
IMG_1696.jpg
Thickness/bulk of the two different extractors, same order: carbine, then long rifle
IMG_1694.jpg
IMG_1695.jpg
Last edited by 72 usmc on Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: French Model Berthier 1907-15/34 find

#45 Post by 72 usmc » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:41 am

Here are some on line grabs/ screen shots of a normal Berthier Mle 1907/15 bolt head showing the extractor and its difference from the one found in the M1934 7.5 Mas modified carbine. It shows it removed. I did not want to do this to my rifle just for a photo. Some interesting photos showing how it fits in and its thinness.
berthier extractor 030.JPG
Screen Shot 2018-11-23 at 8.44.52 PM.png




Here is a view from a different Mle 1907/15-34 carbine of its bolthead. The Mle 1907/15-34 has a hefty extractor and it must be part of the conversion's design so it can withstand snapping over the edge of the rimless 7.5 Mas cartridge. Now try and find a spare? I could not find any photos showing one removed in order to view its thickness and attachment method.
2013-04-24131833.jpg

Ok, I can not get rid of the lower attachment photos( deleted them and they show up as attachments): Not my photos.
The first is a view of a normal extractor on a Mle 1907/15. The second is a duplicate of the 1934 bolt, the third shows the removal process of a Breathier extractor on a standard Berthier, and the fourth is another duplicate of the above photos. Sorry, I am not sure why it is so difficult to remove incorrectly posted photos. Doing so just makes mess of things.
Attachments
acfa09a.jpg
2013-04-24131833.jpg
Démontage extracteur.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-11-23 at 8.44.52 PM.png
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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