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Vz 98/22 sight trouble

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StonewallSharpeson
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Vz 98/22 sight trouble

#1 Post by StonewallSharpeson » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:52 am

Hello, I have 2 Czech 98/22 rifles. These rifles have E stamps, meaning that they were accepted into Czech service, and were at some point sold to, I believe, Turkey - as opposed to Persia. I say this because of a lack of foreign stamps on them.
The problem is that I can't hit anything with them, probably because of the rear sights, or perhaps because of the ammo that I'm firing.

1) The rear sights are marked in Arabic numerals, starting at 4 and going up to 21. A Turkish friend and I decided that these are most likely meters, though in the '20s and '30s the newly minted Republic of Turkey was in a transitional period between their old imperial measurement system - in which case the sights would presumably be in Turkish Arshins (68cm) - and the metric system.
Using these 400-? sights, I hit at about 6" above my point of aim at 50 yds. I hit about a foot or so high at 100 yds. At 200 yds, I'm not even hitting paper; my rounds are hitting the berm probably 3-7 feet above, - and frequently wide of - my point of aim.
Why is this? What can I do about it? Can I get a different sight set to use with these rifles?

2) Could it be that I'm using the wrong ammo? I shoot a variety of surplus 8mm, but most of it is surplus light ball (~150gr) from various places. I know that in the interwar period, the Germans decided they wanted to switch to heavy ball ammo (~200gr) and changed their barrels accordingly. Could the Czechs have done the same? Would the Turks, or Persians, still have shot that?

I'd appreciate any help the community can give me.
Admins, I have posted this in the general, Czech, Turkish, and Middle Eastern forums. If this is against policy, please inform me and I will delete the others.

ammolab
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Re: Vz 98/22 sight trouble

#2 Post by ammolab » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:29 pm

Germans and others didn’t change their “barrels” (twist?) for the switch in bullet weigh they did alter sight ramps for different trajectory of the SS ball.

You can easily buy a taller front sight to hit paper at shorter distance. Brownells sells a TALL Mauser front sight that you can file down to precisely sight in your rifles.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/s ... od341.aspx

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Re: Vz 98/22 sight trouble

#3 Post by 72 usmc » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:08 pm

More info;
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/s ... od341.aspx
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showth ... p?t=418129

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?t ... ew.612519/

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... ront-sight

libertytreecollectors had some taller sights:
https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/p ... oduct=4014

Think about this:
No, it doesn't shoot too high, you just aren't aiming low enough.:D

The one I am most familiar with is the Swedish mauser, but in general it holds true for most military mauser sights. The basic problem is that Americans expect the rifle to hit where the sights point, usually at 100yds. European arms makers and military training in the early 20th century had different ideas.

For example, the Swede is set to "zero" at 300 meters. And, soldiers of the era were taught to shoot (aim) for the enemy's belt buckle (low center of mass). This meant that a rifle that shot "high" at close range would still deliver a good hit, and also helped compensate for errors in range estimation, even at longer ranges.

The most common way to correct for shooting high at 100yds (short range by the standards of the past) is to install a taller front sight. Myself, I just aim a bit low.

IF you do install a taller front sight, yes, the markings on the rear sight will be off a little bit. Again, the answer is to learn the hold off needed to get back on target.

If you can't get on target at 100yds, shoot closer, 50yds. Expect to off for height, aiming dead center. As long as you are on the paper, and centered left right at closer range, you are getting there. Then move out to longer range. Nothing should change, except the impact height above your point of aim. (ok, allow a bit more for wind;))
Drachenstein
From the Mitchel's manual just the same except no sight hood like a k98 :lol: :lol: With mine I am at the bottom of the ball not the center, like the black ball is sitting on the front sight, you can also aim lower so there is a space between the black ball and the sight post. Just take 5 shots at center record there location, 5 shots at the bottom record there location, then take 5 shots with a space between the ball and post- a low aim and record there location. What works best, and be sure there is a small clustered group with each grouping of 5 shots. Also see if left /right is on target. If not, then trigger control/breathing or a taller front sight if the clusters are tight. First work on up/down , then work on left/right. Think, Kentucky windage :shifty: :shifty: record the rifles serial number and what works best with each rifle in your range book so next time you just look in your range book how that specific rifle shoots and where you need to aim.

OR YOU AIM dead on like the picture shows and get a taller sight post and adjust it by filing till it shoots dead center. You may have to drift the new front sight R/L to adjust for side left/right movement. Do this at 100 yards. Heres a picture and quote from a Mitchel manual :think:
The Correct Sight Picture:
The rear sight has a ‘V’ notch, and the front sight has an inverted ‘V’ post. Simply match them up and make sure they are level and centered; the front in the rear and level. That forms the correct sight picture. The inverted ‘V’ post centered in the rear ‘V’ notch of the rear sight is the correct (and only) sight picture you should use.
Screen Shot 2018-12-13 at 7.43.28 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-12-13 at 7.43.28 AM.png (11.53 KiB) Viewed 4727 times
more info & sight pictures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sights

I use this one with the kids that fire pellet rifles:
https://www.crosman.com/sights-sighting-and-accuracy
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Vz 98/22 sight trouble

#4 Post by 72 usmc » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:18 pm

I assume you checked the bore? The rifling is good and the crown good- no nicks. Even with wear they are good shooters. Does the bolt match, and if not, did you check its headspace with a FIELD gauge? Be sure rifling is visible at the end of the barrel and not worn smooth.
Good crown, good rifling to end of barrel. Not worn away at top of barrel.
Screen Shot good crownnand decent barrel.png
Screen Shot good crownnand decent barrel.png (145.77 KiB) Viewed 4664 times
Average bore and crown normal wear on a 98/22
Screen Shot 2018-12-15 at 11.16.02 AM.png
Junk, shot out bore
Screen Shot   very poor condition crown.png
Screen Shot very poor condition crown.png (293.44 KiB) Viewed 4664 times
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.

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Re: Vz 98/22 sight trouble

#5 Post by OldRifles » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:03 am

Ammolab's advice is sound; get a tall front sight blade, and re-zero with whatever ammo you're using. That's worked well with mine, which I feed with Turkish Ball ammo, Romainian LB or hand loads using 150 gr. flat based bullets.

The 'E' block was a Turkish contract from the beginning, they weren't culled from Czech Army stores for export.

StonewallSharpeson
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Re: Vz 98/22 sight trouble

#6 Post by StonewallSharpeson » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:42 pm

OldRifles wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:03 am
The 'E' block was a Turkish contract from the beginning, they weren't culled from Czech Army stores for export.
Wait so you’re saying the “E 23” stamp has nothing to do with Czech service? How can I tell if a rifle was?

StonewallSharpeson
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Re: Vz 98/22 sight trouble

#7 Post by StonewallSharpeson » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:54 pm

72 usmc wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:18 pm
I assume you checked the bore? The rifling is good and the crown good- no nicks. Even with wear they are good shooters. Does the bolt match, and if not, did you check its headspace with a FIELD gauge? Be sure rifling is visible at the end of the barrel and not worn smooth.
Good crown, good rifling to end of barrel. Not worn away at top of barrel.
The rifling in both rifles looks good, but my groups are pretty disappointing. I’m not a great shooter, but I’m not a bad one either. That’s what got me thinking about bullet weight.
I only one of the rifles has a matching bolt. The other doesn’t have a serial. Using my ghetto headspace test (ram a round in the chamber and see if the bolt catches and ejects it). They were fine.
Speaking of which, it’d be really nice if the followers had a bolt stop, like my K98

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Re: Vz 98/22 sight trouble

#8 Post by OldRifles » Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:02 pm

StonewallSharpeson wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:42 pm
OldRifles wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:03 am
The 'E' block was a Turkish contract from the beginning, they weren't culled from Czech Army stores for export.
Wait so you’re saying the “E 23” stamp has nothing to do with Czech service? How can I tell if a rifle was?
Sir,
The 'E(lion)23' stamp is the year the rifle was produced. The 'E' I'm referring to is the serial number alpha prefix. There were also non-E block rifles that went to Turkey, but they had been used in the Czech Army prior.

Proof of Czech Army service could be as simple as the absence of any Turkish attributes, like the different rear sight blade, and the lack of WWII German parts used on the rifle when these were overhauled by the Turks in the post-war period. That's because the Turks acquired many German rifles (and several Yugoslav and Greek contract Mausers) in the course of the war from German troops who surrendered to the Turks rather than the Soviets, as the Germans fled south from the Caucasus and Black Sea region.

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